Earmark Podcast | Earn Free Accounting CPE

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Blake Oliver: [00:00:19] Welcome. We'll get started shortly. Before we begin, here's how to earn continuing professional education credit for attending this session. There are no polling questions or attendance checks. Instead, you will demonstrate your knowledge by taking a brief multiple choice quiz using the earmark app. Visit Earmark app in your web browser. You can also download the mobile app by scanning the QR code on the screen. Log in or, if you're new, create your free account. Be sure to use a valid email address, because that's where we'll send your course completion certificates from the home screen. Scroll down to find the course. You can also tap the magnifying glass icon to search for the course. Tap on the course artwork, then the enroll button. On the course tab, you'll find the recording and quiz questions. Complete the quiz to earn your CPE certificate. It takes us a few days to create the course on the app. So if you are attending this session live, please wait a few days. We'll email you a link to the course when it is ready. If you have questions or need help, email us at support at earmark CPE. Com and now on to the event. Hello, everyone, and welcome back to earmark. I'm Blake Oliver. My guest today is Robin Thieme, the visionary founder and CEO of KBS CFO. With over three decades of experience, Robin is a forward thinking financial strategist and pioneering virtual organization builder. She's here to share her insights on innovative hiring practices and strategies for attracting and retaining top talent in accounting firms, which, as we all know, is a big problem that we are going to hopefully solve today. Give you some ideas for at least how to get started. Robin, welcome to earmark.

Robin Thieme: [00:02:02] Hey, it's great to be here, Blake.

Blake Oliver: [00:02:04] Thanks for reaching out to me and suggesting this topic. I would love to learn your strategies for attracting talent. You've got some really interesting, uh, tactics such as work, simulations and apprenticeships. But before we get into that, can you tell us a bit about yourself and your firm? Where are you at? Sure. What do what do you do? You know, what's your firm look like?

Robin Thieme: [00:02:32] Yeah. So, uh, I am located in the Washington, DC metro area. Uh, my firm is distributed. We've been, uh, been set up from day one, uh, as a distributed firm, I've got folks all over the country, as well as a few, uh, wonderful offshore, um, people. And we've been providing fractional CFO and accounting department services to growing businesses in the primarily in the, uh, manufacturing design build government contracting area. And I do have a specialty in distilleries. So I've been working with a lot of distilleries all over the country, um, providing fractional CFO and, uh, accounting department services, which is now coined by, uh, the industry as client advisory services or client advisory and accounting services, I guess is, is what, what, um, what people call it. Uh, but I was. I guess you could say a one team player as a CFO for years. And in 2004, when the technology was still somewhat, um, uh, it's been it's it's vastly developed now, but I recognize that I could be kind of what, maybe a free agent or do, do, uh, have an impact on businesses in the fractional world and started, uh, doing so, uh, at that time, most of the time I had to explain, you know, what we do versus classic what could be described as. Bookkeeping, which I try to avoid using that term. Uh, we we were we have transaction specialists that work at KBS, but I would get the call and have to explain, uh, what we do. I don't have to do that anymore. Thankfully, uh, everybody who's calling, they the businesses today know exactly what a fractional CFO is, and demand is strong for that kind of solution. It's just a great fit for growing businesses.

Blake Oliver: [00:04:50] Yeah, it's like the fastest growing segment of the client accounting services or client advisory services segment.

Robin Thieme: [00:04:58] Definitely.

Blake Oliver: [00:05:00] And that's all you do.

Robin Thieme: [00:05:01] That's all I've ever done. Yeah. So there's plenty of work out there and demand as I said. So it's it's all we we need to do. And uh, you know, I leave the auditing and tax preparation to my colleagues.

Blake Oliver: [00:05:18] So you mentioned government contractors manufacturing. So that's one segment that you serve. And then distilleries is another. Yes. Uh, that seems kind of like different. Uh, how did you end up doing those two niches?

Robin Thieme: [00:05:36] Distilleries are manufacturers that, you know, ultimately it's a factory, uh, with like lots of opportunity for things to blow up, which is kind of interesting to me. Okay. So, uh, you know, uh, and of course, uh, liking the end product is, is always, uh, you know, adds to the fun, too. So I was working with one of my clients who was a serial entrepreneur over, uh, 15 years ago, and they got into the space and I had already been had a fractional CFO relationship. And I just fell in love with with the environment of, uh, distilleries. And it turns out it's, you know, again, it's fun to talk about bourbon and rye. And I do find, um, I'm pretty entertained by that concept on an average weekend and, like, discussing cocktails and things like that. But it turns out that the accounting is pretty complex and and that you, you know, distilleries look for half decent financial advisors because for one, they're investing like a large amount of money in these the, the barrels of gold, you know, and sitting on them for a long time. So they have cash flow issues and challenges and need lender lending assistance. And they have like complicated, um, uh, calculations of how you, you know, what a finished case cost is. So for all those things, it's, it turns out it's it's a really great relationship. And I have found for whatever reason, it's a lot of there's a lot of really nice people in the industry. So that always helps.

Blake Oliver: [00:07:26] That's great. It's it's always good to be working in a space that you enjoy yourself, where you enjoy the product. Right. Exactly. And and you're a fan of what is being delivered. Um. So one of the challenges of CFO services, of being a CFO fractional CFO is that it takes a lot of expertise to deliver it properly. So I'm wondering what does your team look like? How do you provide these services to clients? Is it you are the fractional CFO or do you have others who provide that in your firm? Like what does the firm look like?

Robin Thieme: [00:08:05] So the firm is is essentially set up similar to how an accounting department should be set up with, uh, a I use a lot of sports metaphors because they just one I it it's just deeply ingrained in me and and two I think it works. But you know, I want a deep bench, uh, as, as as for our clients. So we've, we outfit every client with a CFO and, uh, accounting manager and a transaction specialist, or maybe more. And that's the term I use to describe what, uh, accounting clerk or folks that are responsible for capturing all the transactions and building out the information in the accounting database to the point of us, uh, being able to, uh, close out the month and so forth. So we, we, uh, divide and conquer. There are other team members that provide CFO services. I do have some unique skills that, uh, I bring to the table in terms of focusing on, uh, business process automation and it, uh, efficiency. And then I have some other colleagues that have similar credentials to me that are amazing at, like analyzing financial reports and bringing in insights and things like that.

Robin Thieme: [00:09:31] So very complimentary. And, um, and so, uh, and I think that, you know, I try to outfit every client with a team, it could be a team of two. It could be a team of four, it could be a team of, um, uh, you know, three or 4 or 5 or whatever, depending on the needs of the client. And, uh, but it always encompasses that full spectrum of, again, what I would consider a classic accounting department. And the one thing that I would, uh, you know, add to that, which is it is a little bit of a digression, but it kind of connects the dots with what we've been talking about already is they all really care about the outcomes of the client, like they're super embedded. They they really and that's part of the screening process and retention, is that we need people that are going to be rooting for our clients, like. Deeply ingrained. Not you can't. You can't like. Beat that into somebody, so to speak.

Blake Oliver: [00:10:37] So it could change. It could be two. It could be four. But on average it's three people serving a client, one CFO, one accounting manager and one transaction specialist. I really like that because you're not using the term bookkeeper. That's right. Which has unfortunately, some negative connotations. And and and. Yeah. Yeah. That's that's that's fascinating.

Robin Thieme: [00:11:05] Yeah, I, I really I if I, um. If I can have some kind of impact on our industry and tribe. I am trying to get rid of the use of that term in the the work that, you know, professional accounting firms are doing. It's not accurate. Actually. Nobody's keeping any books. There's no like literal book walking around. And most of the time, uh, if you play your cards right, transactions are being moved from one database to another. They're not, you know, being typed in where somebody's dropping a bunch of pieces of paper, at least not in my world, um, you know, into a plastic inbox and then typing them in and again, that word book comes, oh my gosh, that comes from 100 years ago when there were physical books. So, you know, it's just you could tell I have an opinion about it. I just, I think it's, um, it undermines it undermines the, the vision and value that, uh, real finance and accounting professionals are bringing to their clients. So.

Blake Oliver: [00:12:22] Yeah. It's, uh. I'm gonna have to. I'm gonna have to use this one going forward. I think this is this is great.

Robin Thieme: [00:12:27] That would be an honor if you would. I honestly.

Blake Oliver: [00:12:30] Hey, it's the it's the best. I've. It's one of the best I've heard yet. Um, okay, so you've got this team of three for a typical client. Let's talk about how you built this team, because that is honestly got to be the hardest part about building a firm. It was for me. I knew how to do the work. I could document it like that wasn't difficult for me to build the checklists and the processes. I like that the hardest part I had was finding the right people, and then once I hired the right people, sometimes they weren't the right fit. They didn't actually have the knowledge they claimed to have, or they just they couldn't do the job for whatever reason. Right? It it didn't work. So I'm really eager to talk to you about this work simulations idea. Can you give me, like, can you walk me through how this works? Like if I wanted to, if I wanted to get a job at Ccb's CFO, what would you put me through as an applicant?

Robin Thieme: [00:13:27] Yeah. So, um, I'm going to go over that, and then we can kind of step back and do the why and everything. But basically, uh, I really do try to adhere to the, uh, the, you know, hire slow, fire, fast, you know, adage that we've all been trained as, as business owners to adhere to, which can be challenging if you think you, you know, you speak to somebody and you just hit it off with them. And, uh, so basically, I, I definitely love leveraging tools like indeed and ZipRecruiter, they have built in screening tools that are pretty, um, amazing. And they're definitely, uh, on the forefront in terms of, uh, machine learning and, and bringing to you some curating the lists and so forth. So, you know, I think the first thing that comes to, uh, that that would happen is if somebody, even, you know, whoever is interested in working here, whether they like it or not, I say I love it. If you would post your job in India or post your interest in indeed, which might, you know, it's like this is a twisted way of looking at it. But like everything I do is a test to see how interested is that person, really? Because, uh, you know, you really have to love what you do, uh, here. So can they.

Blake Oliver: [00:15:01] Follow instructions.

Robin Thieme: [00:15:02] And can they follow instructions? And how motivated are they? And, uh, you know, all those things that you think of. So, uh, once they're in either, uh, again, I'm leaning on indeed right now, but I've used I think their, their forgive me indeed and ZipRecruiter but they, you know, they have similar features or any of those products.

Blake Oliver: [00:15:27] So they, you post all the open positions in indeed.

Robin Thieme: [00:15:30] Indeed. Yes. Sometimes ZipRecruiter like I said, I use both. So um, within those tools they have some really fantastic prescreening features. So for example I can set up automated tools. They don't I, they, you know, they shouldn't feel completely automated. But for those candidates that are hitting all the marks, they they'll get a template email from the system that will ask them 5 or 6 questions. And, uh, the questions include what prompted you to respond to this ad? Just as, you know, give giving away some of my things that are not that novel at all. But I want to see, you know, I know that as an applicant, they can apply to hundreds of jobs all at once, like so, um, you know, just like I'm leveraging the tool, I know an applicant is leveraging the tool, so it's but but we are, uh, dealing with we're in the people business and we're dealing with, um, very intimate relationships. So I want to kind of get intimate with this person as quickly as possible. So, uh, so we go through those screens and, uh, assuming that all is going well with those initial exchanges again, which which also include, by the way, what you're right away, what are your minimum salary requirements? I don't want to wait to have that conversation until later. Uh, so so that usually weeds things out right there with the written exchanges. And then the other thing that, uh, those systems have is a phone interview. It's it's only. Um, like. A minute worth of exchanges, but it's interesting to hear some of the the these people on the phone responding verbally to generic questions.

Blake Oliver: [00:17:38] So is this an automated process? Yes. Okay. So they dial in, they get questions and then they answer. And that's all recorded. Yep.

Robin Thieme: [00:17:46] Ah really cool.

Blake Oliver: [00:17:48] Yeah. And again listen.

Robin Thieme: [00:17:50] And then I just listen at my own leisure okay. And um and I hear responses and it just spans the spectrum of, you know like basically yes and no. And one word, you know, answers to an expanded story or some depth or some kind of contrived answer that you feel like that person just, you know, asked their, their father how to answer, you know, or something. So, um, once they've, you know, gotten through that screening process, then. One of the emails that they'll get is a description of should you, um, continue to meet the qualifications? Our process includes a three day work simulation that will require between 4 to 6 hours of your time over a three day period of time. I might say longer, actually. So then that's more screening because some people never answer that email. And uh, so those that do, um, are then set up in our system, we use asana, uh, for workflow. And we set up a simulation that includes, uh, a wide variety of tasks and assignments to be, um, performed over a three day period of time. So I arrange for the time and then, um, and every, like you were saying, every single step of the way. There's inherent screening going on, responsiveness, you know, uh, inquiries, curiosity about the the critical thought, you know, so you're just you're kind of on the lookout for all of those things. And, um, that that's kind of a big picture overview.

Blake Oliver: [00:19:48] So three day work simulation, 4 to 6 hours total of work. You set them up in asana like they're an employee? That's right. And they get to work on this. So this is this is not a real client. This is a like like, give me more. Tell me more about the the actual simulation. Like what is. Yeah.

Robin Thieme: [00:20:12] So that's a good point.

Blake Oliver: [00:20:13] So I demo file or something that you put them in. What's that. Is it like a demo QuickBooks file. Like how do you actually. Yeah.

Robin Thieme: [00:20:20] So I, um, I don't permit them to log in to any accounting systems or any of our, uh, having access to any of the systems. That's a great question. The the tasks center around. Really. Requiring, um, setting up scenarios, case studies, seeing how they they would respond as an, let's say, an example might be, um, to, uh, provide a written explanation to a client about the difference between cash and accrual accounting. Mhm. So that, to be honest, is included. And so, you know, um, in that test and that's testing for a lot of things. So I have a number of questions when I get into the technical of uh. Just, you know, how would you plan your day? How do you plan your day? You know, uh, how do you, um, deal with a. A client who's unresponsive, what tactics would you take to do so? And then again, there's sprinkled in there some like just classic accounting questions like, uh, without again without getting them into any tool, uh, you know, your client has decided to purchase, uh, supplies from Amazon. What are the steps you would use to record that? It's trying to like.

Robin Thieme: [00:22:03] Uh, give them. And one of the, you know, biggest skills that, uh. We are all we all need to make sure we retain as critical thought. And so at times when I'm asking a question, I'm really looking for questions. From the person, because I just think that in a way, those that don't ask questions, they almost scare me more than, uh, you know, those that pursue, you know, questions and, and might ask about another another example of a, um, included on the task is a task list is to just go to the website of one of our clients and I ask, you know, what would be an example of. A revenue item that, you know. So I try to attract to the accounting in our, in our, uh, world. But I also like ask them to just comment on like what the business is or do they have any questions regarding this distillery client located in Denver, Colorado? You know, just again, to check for like enthusiasm and and interest in the work beyond the numbers.

Blake Oliver: [00:23:28] Do you get pushback on 4 to 6 hours for this? It is a lot more than I'm sure many accounting firms are requiring.

Robin Thieme: [00:23:38] Some of the staff have spent like way more than that. Um, I've been told. So it's like the running joke is like that it that I have vastly underestimated that 4 to 6 hours. So there might be some people on my team that would, you know, quickly override that. But, uh, uh, that's how long it should take, let's put it that way. So if you're working effectively. But, um, I. I've not ever gotten pushback for those candidates that are interested. I have had people. Quit prematurely on the simulation once they see what's going on. So and I also, I guess, uh, by virtue of remember I'm sending them an email with that's explaining it. Sometimes I never hear back. So I guess not any literal pushback, but they're passive actions. Is is pretty efficient method for screening them out.

Blake Oliver: [00:24:43] How many candidates will do the work? Simulation. When you offer it to them, like if you offered it to 100 clients, 100 prospects, how many or 100 prospective employees? How many actually do it?

Robin Thieme: [00:24:58] Yeah. Um. That's a little hard to answer because by the time they've gone through all these email exchanges, it's close to 100% because they're either professing enthusiasm or they really are enthusiastic. So most of the time, what happens with the. With the, um, simulation is. You know, for for people that end up really working out, they are like chomping at the bit to come work here because it's like they really see, you know, part of the another task is call Blake, make an arrangement to speak to Blake in the next two days and talk to him about the the day in the life of a transaction specialist like I have, you know, a couple different discussion points, so they meet the team members. And so I didn't really answer your question, but because I, I honestly like I don't I don't have many by the time they've gone through all these exchanges that, um, don't want to right pursue, you know, um, the, the job. And I would say, I think I have some somewhere early in the exchange, I'm, I say something like. Um. Only those interested in the actual work should apply. Like because you see flexible, you see remote, you see, you know, maybe distilleries, you see all these things. And so but if you don't like this work you're going to be miserable. Right.

Blake Oliver: [00:26:40] So it's to their benefit as well to do the simulation, because that's the kind of work they'll be doing on a regular basis.

Robin Thieme: [00:26:47] That's right. And the work, um, you know, another key component of the simulation that that is, is, is actually results in a lot of people not working out is the how how you function in a remote environment. How effective are your written communication skills? How long do you struggle with a problem before you ask for help? When somebody's not down the hall, you know? Uh, so, um, how do you manage? Tasks being doled out to you literally like 60 tasks being doled out to you in in, within an hour's time. But manage the time so that it you're doing it within the next three days. So so so the remote thing I think I've had. Uh, people fall out because they just. They don't want to work in this remote environment. They want to go to an office.

Blake Oliver: [00:27:49] Right? Or they think they want the remote environment, but then that requires a lot of self-management. It's a very different style of working.

Robin Thieme: [00:27:59] It is. It's very different. Yeah. And some people, it's really not for everybody. So. Right. Uh, even in this day and age where it's become more commonplace. So, um, you know, I do, I do like one of the another question that is on all of the work simulations is to contact one of the team members and discuss the challenges of working in a remote environment, because I, I just want to kick the tires on that big time. It's I this wasn't your exact question, but I'm just saying, like hiring the wrong people is super expensive, as you and I both know, on so many levels. So I become like kind of a. Uh, I much more, um, of a skeptic during the hiring process than I am once once somebody comes on, I'm like all about cheerleading them on and so forth. But during that process I'm like, are you you know, are you sure you want to work here?

Blake Oliver: [00:29:02] So you're changing my definition of a work simulation, because I came to this discussion with a particular idea of what that was, which your your, which is something more limited. I was thinking. Provision a demo QuickBooks file for someone and ask them to go do some reconciliations. Prove that they can do that or or give them some financial statements or access to a QuickBooks file with financials and say, you know, generate financial statements and provide some analysis right to a client. But your your work simulation is much broader than that. It actually seems like is it fair to say it encompasses the interview process that that the interview is really the part of. That's right. Yeah. That's right.

Robin Thieme: [00:29:49] I used to call it I used to use the word interview and I changed it to simulation. But yeah, it's true. It is much broader. I do like again, I do try to test for. Skill within it. So I have like. Download this Excel file and run totals on very simplistic Excel. Um, Excel. Uh. Uh, task within it. But I'm always looking for, like, you know, this Excel thing that they have them do has them total product buy skew and just some very basic Excel tasks. But I then ask them questions about. The purpose of this little dinky spreadsheet. And you know what is the problem with, you know. Is, is there going to be enough revenue for this, uh, toymaker to continue, you know, that kind of thing? So because I just, I think, um. Again, you're going to be miserable if you don't kind of like the output and all the different components of it because that's. Yeah, I, I do think it's important to know how to provision, you know, a qbo, um, instance. But for our clients, it's like, I do hear this from them that they, they've acknowledged that we care about them. And that seems to be important. And I think that that's like a I'm looking I'm testing for that more at times. Right.

Blake Oliver: [00:31:32] It's less about the technical ability to work with these apps and more about. The type of work you'll be doing with the clients. Yeah. Don't. You don't have to go to the trouble of provisioning all these apps, which is a big barrier to doing work simulations. It's a reason that a lot of firms don't do them because, yeah, they don't have a way to easily like replicate the work environment.

Robin Thieme: [00:31:55] Right.

Blake Oliver: [00:31:56] In a realistic way. So you just skip all that by just doing it all in your task management or project management. And then I assume you can just copy these asana.

Robin Thieme: [00:32:08] That's right. Yeah, yeah. And I do think, like, I guess where I came to on that and I think, you know, this as well is like. It is really important to have the skills and I do and I don't want to, and I'm going to touch on that in a second. But it's like, um, we spend most of the day like asking questions, pursuing problems, you know, or resolving problems corresponding with each other and like writing out, like writing, you know, you kind of, um, alluded to this at the beginning of like, developing processes. That's huge. That's that a lot of accountants struggle with that, like creating processes. So being able to test for that and project management and that kind of thing, it turns out, um, is the magic sauce at times. And, you know, in terms of accounting skills and, and something that you mentioned earlier in the, um, podcast. I also have had accountants like that I hired that were really, uh, not up to par, you know, for and they and most of the time it was like time management, you know, like I'd assign something to them that I really do think should take three hours and they would spend 30 hours on it. That's a little bit skill, but it's like to me that's a little bit of like soft skill, like you should stop at or ask.

Blake Oliver: [00:33:46] A question if it starts to take too long, if it's supposed to take three hours, like maybe you don't understand something.

Robin Thieme: [00:33:52] Exactly. And so one of the reasons I started doing this work simulation was, honestly, I hope this comes out right to address like technical challenges that senior accounting skill senior accountants lacked. Like, so you, you know, you get a new a recent graduate. They can hop in and adopt all the technology and in a way. Many can learn the skills, but when. But I do. Really? Benefit from having really skilled senior controllers and CFOs that can adapt to the remote and technical environment, and that was really what drove me to. To the simulation.

Blake Oliver: [00:34:46] I want to talk about the remote environment and how your firm is different than a traditional brick and mortar firm. But before that, I want to welcome our live stream viewers. We do have some viewers who have tuned in live to this episode. Welcome! If you have questions for Robin or for me, feel free to put those in the comments or the chat wherever you are watching us. And if you're listening to this on the podcast feed, you can join me live for future interviews. Subscribe to Earmark Webinars. You can see a listing of upcoming webinars at earmark CPE com slash webinars, and I hope to see you here in the future. Okay, Robin. So let's talk about the results. Only work environment or the row, which is very appropriate considering that you live in Maryland and everyone likes to boat.

Robin Thieme: [00:35:42] That's right. All right I like that I like all right.

Blake Oliver: [00:35:45] You got a row.

Robin Thieme: [00:35:46] I didn't know where you were going.

Speaker3: [00:35:47] But.

Blake Oliver: [00:35:48] That's you know, I visited Annapolis, uh, last year, and I got to see some some of the Naval Academy students, you know, rowing. Yeah. That's really cool. Yeah. Um, yeah. So, yeah, like, I assume that you are able to ask this of prospects who want to work for you. You're able to ask them to do this three day work simulation, because you get a lot of people who want to work for you. That's right. And what about your firm makes people really want to work there?

Robin Thieme: [00:36:20] Well, I, I mean, I, I do think that being, uh, tech forward and providing an environment where people really are challenged to learn something new every day, I do hear that from the team that they their brain hurts at times from the, you know, the the learning opportunities and being challenged and giving them the agency to have that opportunity. I think that's really. Top on the list, honestly, is because we do. Somebody has shared with me in the end, like taking on manufacturing clients or government contracting or. Uh, distilleries, in particular fermented spirits or e-commerce. Those are more complex clients. They they require a like a certain higher level, in my opinion, of, of, um, understanding of technology for sure. And skills. So you go deep and you learn a lot and you're challenged by the regular elements of a small business, uh, and maybe 4 or 5 small businesses. So that I think really is the driver. And that's actually what I'm looking for from a candidate. When I hear that somebody and I do actually kind of test this multiple times, if the candidates, like, is just wowed by remote or flexible, they hear the word flexible. I, I am like, I, I'm pretty deterred by that. Um, as the top reason that they would be coming to work here.

Robin Thieme: [00:38:04] Because while there is flexibility in, uh, what time zone? Time, uh, shift, you decide to work within limits, actually. Uh, there's no flexibility in terms of meeting deadlines that if we make a promise to a client, there's zero flexibility in that because that those promises are essential. So, uh, we have I have, um, my, my, one of my requirements is that everybody be committed to working at least 60% of their time between 10 and 3, their time. So, uh, which turns out to be the core working hours where our clients would make the most requests and expect responses. So, uh, there is flexibility to a certain degree where if, if, if somebody wants to accomplish 40% of their work outside of those hours and they can work independently and meet those deadlines, then, uh, it works out really well, you know, so but I but I think, uh, that this concept of remote work, uh, is at times misunderstood as remote equals. You can take off in the middle of the day and go on a hike and, uh, not be, uh, leaving your teammates. Honestly, you know, ultimately part of it, too, is this caring about your team, you know, and not letting your team down.

Blake Oliver: [00:39:47] Okay, so. But that seems like reasonable to me. Uh, 60% of my time in an eight hour day would be five hours about. So you're basically saying from 10 to 3 my local time, I need to be online for five hours. Is that is that exactly? Yeah. So so for me that. Yeah. So basically just basically from 10 to 3.

Robin Thieme: [00:40:11] That's right. Yeah. Whatever your time zone is. But I just I do think like at one time at, I've been doing this for a long time. So at one time I would meet this great candidate and I would never do this. Now, believe me. And they would say. I'm available nights and weekends. And let's just say at one time I was like, oh, that. They're amazing. Like, I'll take them no matter what. Well, what happened was I was in working nights and weekends, I mean, and it was really annoying to me, honestly, that I'm getting a question at 9:00, um, eastern, uh, you know, about something that is very clear. If they don't get a response, then they're unproductive for the next, you know, ten hours so that that doesn't work. So yeah.

Blake Oliver: [00:41:03] No, I agree, you know, I run a remote company as well, but it's very challenging. Uh, we have we have employees. On the other side of the planet. So that is a situation where you cannot have times that overlap unless somebody is willing to work nights. Sure. So so for those folks, we just have a different standard. But if you're here in the US, then we have, you know, maybe it's not as defined as you are. Yours is. But the idea is that like during these. Court times during the day. Middle of the day is when we are all online.

Robin Thieme: [00:41:36] Yeah, yeah.

Blake Oliver: [00:41:37] And it's great because it gives you flexibility. Like you need to go pick up your kid, right? Well you can do that after three usually, right. That's right. Or and I.

Robin Thieme: [00:41:45] Usually when I contact a team member. In a way to convey my understanding. Like I could care less if you are leaving because you're meeting the deadlines, you're already you're doing your job. So I do call people at times and say, hey, Blake, are you working right now? And those that have been working me for for a while, know what I mean is I'm okay if you're not. Just tell me, because I'm gonna. I want to go over something. I'm not watching you. I have no idea. And I don't care as long as you are doing your job so well.

Blake Oliver: [00:42:26] And that's the challenge of managing a team when they're not in the office is you can't look over their shoulder. That's right. You can't manage by walking around, so you manage by results. You mentioned client deadlines are one of them. That's not flexible. If we promise something to a client, we got to deliver it. How else do you hold the team accountable for results in a results only work environment?

Robin Thieme: [00:42:50] Well, we have some analytics that help us to stay on top of responsiveness to emails to clients because that's that's, you know, another piece of feedback that we get, even though I'm super proud of how amazing my accounting abilities are, sometimes clients are like, I love the way you answer emails. And I'm like, okay, I'm good at being responsive. So it's I'll take the W on that. But it is kind of funny. Um, but because a lot of times we acquire a client because their former accountant was completely unresponsive, like that's the.

Blake Oliver: [00:43:29] Number one reason people leave.

Robin Thieme: [00:43:31] So I'm like, this is so easy. All I have to do is answer their email within 24 hours and they like us. So, um, but, uh, you know, we use we use for every single, uh, um, assignment, whether it's to. Contact Denver, Colorado to see about a particular compliance issue or, um, to reconcile something to, uh, you know, whatever it is, every single thing has a deadline in or due date. I'll use that term a due date in our workflow system. Kind of like you have a system also that we use for this podcast. It's the same exact idea. So there's there's an understanding that there's not one task that gets added without a due date. So I can observe if due dates are being missed, regardless of whether the client is aware of it or not.

Blake Oliver: [00:44:37] You have a global view of all the tasks.

Robin Thieme: [00:44:39] Yeah, I can see what you know, who's who's falling behind and who. Uh, and a lot of times when I look at that, honestly, I'm looking at it like, what can I do to help there? Most of the time with us, it's like overwhelm is the issue as opposed to, uh, not having a desire to complete or, you know, another avenue, another side of overwhelm is you always say you can take care of something and you take on more than you. Yeah. So I'm a lot of times I'm monitoring it from that lens as opposed to this person's a deadbeat and they're going to have to be gone. But I've been known to do that too. But, um, but mostly. Yeah. So, so just, you know, really leveraging your workflow tool to ensure that everything is assigned is clear. And part of that. Um, one component of that that is, uh, a rule here at KBS is, uh, we are not permitted to email one another internally. There's no it it's banned. I if if it happens that they'll have I'm pretty serious about it because it's such a waste of time. So when somebody asks you to do something, you have to put it in the workflow tool and you have to, you know, assign a due date to it. And, and is that.

Blake Oliver: [00:46:12] A that's a sauna where you're doing that.

Robin Thieme: [00:46:13] I use a sauna right now. Yeah.

Blake Oliver: [00:46:16] That's a great tool.

Robin Thieme: [00:46:17] Uh, I like it I mean, it it has its pluses and minuses. I'm kind of, uh, I'm in a I might be in a fishing expedition right now, so.

Blake Oliver: [00:46:27] You know, it's always finding the perfect workflow tool is sort of like the holy grail of firms. And I haven't met anyone who's completely happy with theirs. Yeah, yeah, we we go ahead.

Robin Thieme: [00:46:40] I haven't I've been kind of like, this is imperfect. I'm sticking with it for quite a while, but right now I, I just, I, I just got back from engage. So I was like walking around the vendor center looking at workflow tools, kind of thinking about it. But I don't think for, for the fractional CFO work. Not that you asked, but I don't think like a classic. Workflow tool that's geared towards public accounting is a good practice management.

Speaker3: [00:47:14] Yeah, exactly.

Blake Oliver: [00:47:15] It's interesting. I see a lot of really innovative firms not using workflow manager or not using practice management software that's dedicated to accounting. They use general purpose software and adapt it to their needs. And that's sort of the tug of war. Is that maybe a practice management tool has a specific feature that's helpful for accounting firms, like some sort of portal or whatnot, but then they tend to lack the features that you get in these general purpose tools, like asana or a process street or a what's the other big one?

Speaker3: [00:47:50] Rike.

Blake Oliver: [00:47:51] Rike.

Speaker3: [00:47:52] Yeah.

Blake Oliver: [00:47:53] Um, another popular one is, uh, I can't I can't think of it off the top of my head. There's so.

Speaker3: [00:47:57] Many.

Blake Oliver: [00:47:58] Carbon is more accounting specific, right.

Speaker3: [00:48:00] Yeah.

Robin Thieme: [00:48:01] It is and it, it, it it seemed a little more expensive. But yeah, it is kind of a funny thing I was looking at, I guess, you know, super nerd, you know, looking at a workflow tool with a colleague and I was and it was a I don't remember which one it was, but it was like CCH or it was one of the accounting ones. And I was just like looking at it going, where is this? Where's like talk to the client about their incentive compensation plan. Like where is that in the checklist? You know, like it's not on there, you know. So it's just too it was just too, uh, I think.

Speaker3: [00:48:40] Those, those those.

Robin Thieme: [00:48:42] With the, with the industry.

Blake Oliver: [00:48:43] The tax, the ones that come from the tax world are just the worst. Yeah, they're the hardest to use. You know, I it was the most frustrating thing when I was in public accounting was having to use one of those tools. I won't name it, but it was just awful. And the problem is that if it's not easy to use, then people won't use it and it defeats the purpose.

Robin Thieme: [00:49:01] That's actually, it's funny that you say that. That's exactly why I went with asana. So when I finally I had been on a like you were saying, I was kind of like compulsively because I am a process person on a journey. For like 3 to 4 years. A while ago, and I had actually decided to go with a accounting centric product. I won't again, I won't say the name of it, but I was pretty far along. I had signed contracts and was setting it up, and I just started to get this vision of me becoming the. Police for, you know, for lack of a better word of me, like not only having to worry if the work was getting done, but worrying that people weren't getting the work that needs to get done into the system because the compliance was too hard. So I just was like, well, you can create a big mess in asana, there's no question. But we're not going to have a compliance issue. So and that, that so that we do have like it, it does require like pruning and things like that. But it's still, you know, like with the the work simulation, you know, I have my template, I can duplicate it. I've got fantastic institutional history that's searchable. You know, we had a situation with, um, a client where I was. Talking to them about, you know, some kind of issue. And six months ago, I had been talking to them about the same issue, and I was just able to easily find the conversation and they were like, pretty impressed with the whole thing because we I'd said, oh, yeah, we had this conversation on April 4th, and I have all our notes from the meeting and it's yeah, you know, we were able to move on.

Blake Oliver: [00:50:59] Just to give our viewers an idea of how big this space is. This is the G2 grid for small business project management software, and if you're listening to the podcast, you cannot see this. But it's a giant mess of icons of logos, and Hassan is actually in the top right of this grid, which indicates that.

Speaker3: [00:51:21] It's cool.

Blake Oliver: [00:51:22] Very popular, and, um, gets great reviews.

Speaker3: [00:51:26] Yeah. High top, high performer. Okay.

Blake Oliver: [00:51:29] The one I couldn't think of was Clickup.

Speaker3: [00:51:32] Oh yeah.

Blake Oliver: [00:51:33] That's very similar to asana in terms of its ease of use and, um, features and general purpose. Uh, there's also notion Smartsheet and Monday up there, and we've also got Trello and Airtable.

Speaker3: [00:51:47] Interestingly, table's.

Robin Thieme: [00:51:48] Popular I know, and um, Clickup is interesting to me. I don't get I like Smartsheet, I totally like that tool. I think it's really powerful, but I don't get it as a workflow tool. Like, to me it's like, but it's.

Speaker3: [00:52:08] It's. Yeah.

Blake Oliver: [00:52:08] It's interesting. Smartsheet is like a turbocharged spreadsheet.

Speaker3: [00:52:11] Yeah.

Blake Oliver: [00:52:11] And you can do workflow in it, but I've never been it's never been like the way I want to look at stuff. But if you really like managing spreadsheets.

Speaker3: [00:52:20] Exactly. Yeah.

Robin Thieme: [00:52:22] I don't want to do that. I'm pretty good with I'm pretty proficient. But it's like I when I look at that, I don't want the Lego building blocks of of workflow, you know, that. That's not one of them. So but that's pretty interesting.

Blake Oliver: [00:52:36] Yeah. Airtable is an interesting one too, because that also takes like a spreadsheet approach. But you can kind of build apps, you almost build your own workflows. And if you're really into building.

Speaker3: [00:52:46] Yeah.

Blake Oliver: [00:52:47] You can build a lot like. Right. And my co-host on the The Accounting podcast, David Leary, actually built out our entire sponsorship database and workflow in Airtable. Yeah. So, you know, that's how he manages orders, that's how he manages fulfillment, all that.

Speaker3: [00:53:02] Yeah, I like it.

Robin Thieme: [00:53:04] I mean, I'm using it some too. But again, I try to just pay for software that's already figured it out and not and spend my time doing that. But it's.

Speaker3: [00:53:16] Exactly.

Robin Thieme: [00:53:16] I can I think, um, and I, like you said, I think that those that adopt it just they, they don't like the constraints of a pre-built software. So they, they, you know, want want something. But then again, you're dealing with. Lack of control, right.

Blake Oliver: [00:53:38] So if you if you want the. If you want the pre-built experience and it works for you, then an asana or Eclipse is great. Yeah, or a Monday. I forgot to mention Monday.

Robin Thieme: [00:53:47] Monday is something that I. That's another one. Yeah.

Blake Oliver: [00:53:50] And then if you want the more customizable experience, which may not be quite as user friendly, that's the Smartsheet notion. Airtable approach.

Speaker3: [00:53:59] Yeah. Uh, yeah.

Blake Oliver: [00:54:00] So it's interesting. There's kind of like two different approaches. Um, Robin, before we run out of time, I really want to talk to you about this apprenticeship concept. Um, you have an apprenticeship program at KBS.

Speaker3: [00:54:12] How does that. Well, I.

Robin Thieme: [00:54:13] So. Yeah. So the AICPA, I may I might, you know, uh, mis phrase this, so I'll ask forgiveness from Tom hood and the AICPA crew, uh, who were the, you know, integral people that started this. So the AICPA, CMA, um, for the Chartered Global Management Accountant, which is Cgma credential, they recognized that there's so much value. And first of all, an on the job training, uh, and then and, and dealing with this, uh, um, recruiting and retention challenge that the industry has basically coordinated with the Department of Labor and in particular, the Maryland Department of Labor has been super supportive of the program. And there's now a few white collar apprenticeship programs. And the accounting accounting is one of them. So I, I learned about the program and, and was an early adopter and fan of the concept because a lot of the people that work for KBS or want to work for KBS or um, or, uh, you know, basically have all the right skills, are a little intimidated, intimidated because they don't have an accounting degree. But those people like, there's, you know, there's people are fully rocking it at KBS. So and I believe they are acquiring the, um, the key elements of the Cgma credential. And so this apprenticeship recognizes that on the job training and has has also, um, training courses within it. And we've got five apprentices working at KBS currently at different levels and just basically acquiring, uh, a level of recognition in the finance, in particular in finance, um, recognition from the AICPA for all the great work we're doing. So it just seemed like a great fit. And I think that the AICPA is, again, looking at it as a way to encourage, uh, recruitment from an untapped. Um or less tapped workforce of people that have, you know, earned their grad, earn their degrees not in accounting, but want to find a way to get past some of the original hurdles. So it's pretty interesting to me. And it's, it's, it's it's like aligned with that whole discussion that you've been having about the 150. You know, it's kind of related.

Blake Oliver: [00:57:16] Well, you know, my big beef with traditional education is that it's so impractical, it's so theoretical. And the most important stuff in accounting, if you want to do the kind of work you're doing, Robin, is like that practical experience.

Speaker3: [00:57:31] Exactly. You know, you don't you can't. Yeah.

Blake Oliver: [00:57:34] You can't like these these accounting education, these accounting programs don't teach you how to be a CFO.

Speaker3: [00:57:39] That's right. So so I think yeah.

Robin Thieme: [00:57:43] And so you and I are in agreement on that. And I do think that, uh, you know, it if we I'm, I'm very proud of the CPA and Cgma credential. And I do think, uh, that. They have. In particular, the CPA has really a fantastic brand recognition outside of, um, you know, the CPA industry or the outside of our, our, um, current credential holders, but we're going to kill it if we don't keep the crop coming, you know? So it's uh, so I think, you know, just trying to have innovation baked in to, uh, the potential learning paths seem like just a natural fit for me to explore. And as an early adopter, I, you know, I was really excited about it. And I love being an early adopter for, like, software or, you know, this particular thing and, and ideally contributing a little bit by providing, you know, feedback about what's working, what's not to.

Blake Oliver: [00:58:52] So is the idea with this apprenticeship program that like, uh, somebody in it can become a cgma without having to go get a traditional accounting degree?

Speaker3: [00:59:00] That's great. That's great. Yeah.

Blake Oliver: [00:59:03] Um. I want to just follow up on one question that I'd written down while you were talking about the results only work environment, and that has to do with time sheets. How do you use time sheets? Do you use them? How do you use them in your firm?

Robin Thieme: [00:59:16] Yeah, I hate time sheets, but I, I do, I do. We use them for job costing. So everything we've, I've been a, um, fixed price biller. Completely disassociated I never discuss. Ever how long anything is going to take with a client. I do share with team members how long something should take because of the example that we just we spoke about a while ago. Like this should take you a couple hours. Let me know if it doesn't, but, um, I haven't found a good way to, uh, track costing or margins. I guess I'll put it that way. Um, uh, project margins, client margins without the use of time sheets. So we do use them. I do make sure everyone knows that the quality of the work is, is ultimately what matters the most. And, um, and then I again, it's it's not something that I ever, uh, discuss with clients. Everything we do is priced in advance, and ideally it's centered around what they would value. But sometimes it is based on, uh, practical elements of, of that particular, um, assignment.

Blake Oliver: [01:00:37] So really the, the time sheets in your firm are just to get an idea of where your team is spending their time on what clients and then.

Robin Thieme: [01:00:45] Capacity to capacity. I get I, you know, so between job costing and capacity. So just to manage the firm you know, understand how somebody spent 30 hours a week on this client. Um, I'll learn from that that we should be implementing like, like I just was talking about, um, at one point, we should be implementing a spend management system because somehow that client didn't get the memo that emailing receipts is, like a horrible idea. So, you know, so I might it's just data to, to to gain insights and help us do our job better.

Blake Oliver: [01:01:29] Robin, it has been great talking to you. Thanks for sharing your insights with me and our listeners. If our listeners want to get in touch with you, connect with you online, where's the best place for them to do that?

Robin Thieme: [01:01:41] Yeah. So you can first of all go to LinkedIn and check me out. I think it's easiest either to look for my name or KBS CFO. And I usually have posts on there, and that's probably the best. But you can always reach out to me through my web website, cbschicago.com.

Blake Oliver: [01:02:00] And when you search on LinkedIn, search for Robin Thieme t h I e m e.

Speaker3: [01:02:05] Correct.

Blake Oliver: [01:02:06] I'm guessing there aren't too many Robin themes.

Speaker3: [01:02:08] There aren't.

Robin Thieme: [01:02:09] There is. There are more than I. But it's but there. But it's I think it's pretty rare. So I don't know how many CPAs Robin Thieme there are, but there should be only one KBS CFO.

Blake Oliver: [01:02:21] I'm the only Blake Oliver, CPA so far.

Speaker3: [01:02:23] Okay, yeah, I haven't pursued that.

Robin Thieme: [01:02:25] And I always, uh, welcome any kind of interaction with my colleagues. I think, you know, just I, I know I've been listening to your podcasts and connected with a few of your guests afterwards, and it's been really enriching. So.

Speaker3: [01:02:43] Yeah, we're talking.

Blake Oliver: [01:02:45] We're talking before we went live about how you connect with Michael Lee. Yeah. After an interview. So.

Speaker3: [01:02:49] Fantastic.

Blake Oliver: [01:02:50] Yeah. And that's how I connected with you I think so, that's right. Basically, if you're listening and you like this conversation, you want to share something with the accounting community, reach out like Robin did, and maybe we can, uh.

Speaker3: [01:03:01] That's right. Yeah.

Robin Thieme: [01:03:02] I was glad to talk with you.

Speaker3: [01:03:04] Yeah.

Blake Oliver: [01:03:05] So thank you. I learned a lot. Thank you so much for suggesting this. Um, I think we might have to implement a work simulation of some kind. You got.

Speaker3: [01:03:14] This.

Robin Thieme: [01:03:14] You you got that process street ready to go?

Blake Oliver: [01:03:17] We've already got the checklists, so it's just a matter of of building one for the interview and simulation process. Um, if you have been listening to this whole episode or watching us on YouTube, you can earn free continuing professional education credits Nasba approved for your CPE or CMA or Cgma renewal. Uh, stay tuned for a brief message about how to earn your CPE, and I hope to see you again soon on another earmark episode. Today's event has ended. To earn CPE, go to earmarked app or scan the QR code on the screen, then log in or create your free account. Search for the course by tapping on the magnifying glass icon on the home screen, and then entering the name of this event. It takes a few days to make the course, so if you're attending this event live, keep an eye out for an email letting you know when the course is available. Pass the quiz to earn your CPE, then tap the button to email yourself a certificate. Stay tuned for more events from your mark. Thanks for joining us and we hope to see you again soon.