Earmark Podcast | Earn Free Accounting CPE

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Blake Oliver: [00:00:00] Welcome back to earmark. I'm Blake Oliver. Today I'm talking with Jasmine Delucci. Jasmine is an attorney, CPA, and enrolled agent who started representing taxpayers while still in high school. If you watch videos about taxes on TikTok, you've probably seen Jasmine in your feed. Or maybe you're one of her nearly 500,000 YouTube subscribers. Jasmine is famous for debunking the legally questionable tax advice found all over social media. In our conversation, Jasmine shares why there's so much tax misinformation on social media. The number one reason tax strategies fail, even valid ones. How she uses videos and social media to grow her multi-million dollar accounting firm, and a whole lot more. Let's get started. Hey, Jasmine, welcome to the show.

Jasmine DiLucci: [00:00:46] Thank you. I'm glad to be here.

Blake Oliver: [00:00:48] Great to have you. You have 488,000 subscribers on YouTube on your tax leveraged channel now on which you debunk tax misinformation. You do that on Instagram as well with 228,000 followers now, and you're also doing longer form content, educational content on tax law, which is actually it's excellent. I'm learning things. My first question to you is why is there so much tax misinformation on social media? Why do you think that is?

Jasmine DiLucci: [00:01:21] I'm I mean, I have like working theories, but honestly, like, who knows? I think my theory in general, because even before I entered the space, I almost like had this thought that like, I can't be good, like a good tax attorney or like good at practicing and be like, correct. And then also be, you know, like online doing this like kind of like influencer thing now, I guess basically like I almost didn't see them where they could be aligned because I think to some extent we all just look at examples. Right? And everyone I saw online was like, oh, well, like they say they do tax, but like they really don't practice day to day. And so I think my theory is basically that first off there are different skill sets, right. So it's like someone that's like literally practiced tax all year long, enjoys that stuff isn't necessarily going to be even interested in being in front of a camera or posting anything online. Um, so then it lends itself to people that, you know, maybe just haven't spent those years that you need to spend to learn to know actually what you're doing. And an easier way to make money is like, well, if I just pretend like I know what I'm doing then then, like, I mean, people do, like they make more money that way, like, actually works. And so, um, I think that's it. And like, my theory is because I watch all of their stuff, obviously, and I debunk it, but it's like I think they genuinely don't know they're wrong. Like, it's not like there's all of a sudden these like malicious, terrible people in tax. It's just like tax law is really hard. And then it's like, if you can make money just by posting whatever on the internet, then, um, and people love to watch tax boom. You've got like a whole industry that's just like posting the wrong thing repetitively.

Blake Oliver: [00:03:00] So it's the algorithm that's to blame is that.

Jasmine DiLucci: [00:03:03] I would say that's part of it. Yeah. Interesting.

Blake Oliver: [00:03:05] Yeah. I mean a great example is a video you did recently on, you know, the rules for deducting clothing in your business. And you go through the three part test. You've researched this very carefully and you have excellent examples and multiple case law examples in your video. And I think it's like I mean, it's over ten minutes long. That video that you did recently, um, that is not what we are getting on Instagram in 60s from these influencers.

Jasmine DiLucci: [00:03:36] No. And it's one of the tests that test specifically. I mean, it's been around for decades and decades, and it's not like I found some niche, crazy, arbitrary thing. I mean, it's like it's the law. Like, right, clear, very easy to find law. But, you know, so I.

Blake Oliver: [00:03:53] Guess I'm just wondering who is telling these influencers that they can do that thing where you put the label on the inside of the sleeve and that's enough?

Jasmine DiLucci: [00:04:03] Yeah, like because.

Blake Oliver: [00:04:04] That's clearly wrong. I mean, is it just that, is it just that we just don't have enough, like trained tax professionals? I mean, like, who is spreading this information out there?

Jasmine DiLucci: [00:04:17] I don't think it's there's not enough trained tax professionals. I think there's tons of great people that don't tend to be online. Um, I will say, like, it's so easy to like, butcher the rule, right when you never understood it in the first place. So it's like, if you never knew the tax court test or the rule in the first place, then now all of a sudden it's easy to say, well, like a logo on the inner seam that's not visible is going to be like some amazing legal argument when it comes to the IRS, when it's coming from like, shreds of truth, right? The real truth is that if you have a clear logo, it is something that's accepted as it's not suitable for personal use, meaning one of the three parts of the test. And so it's like it comes from these like little threads of truth. And, and there's a, there's a practical element to, to consider which is honestly, the IRS doesn't know the law either. So. Right. It's like it very well may work in an audit. And a lot of people will take what works in an audit and then just be like, I know the law now, but it's like you actually just spoke with someone that also didn't know the law and you both agreed on something that was wrong. Mhm. Yeah.

Blake Oliver: [00:05:18] So maybe, maybe it's, it's like the lack of enforcement or the low level of enforcement or is actually contributing to this because you can do these completely incorrect tax strategies if you want to even call them that and get through an audit even often in many cases. And, and there are no penalties for for many people who do it. So I think maybe that's why this perpetuates is that people do it and they get away with it.

Jasmine DiLucci: [00:05:48] Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, IRS audits. And that's where I always try to be clear on like, this is the law, right? I'm not I'm not saying like you're definitely, you know, like it's this is the rule. And so what the problem is that people think they're using the law. So then if it really push comes to shove and you have to go to appeals, you've got a losing argument. That doesn't mean you can't have dumb luck. And a lot of people do have dumb luck in audits when the IRS comes in, like the I always talk about like the layers of an IRS audit, right. The lowest level for small businesses, okay. If you're a much larger business, you have a totally different IRS audit division, and they know their stuff. But the lower levels, like under 10 million gross receipts, the lowest, the lower level auditor, like, you know, they've got so many boxes to check, they aren't given full training. The hiring is not great. The training is not great. It's just the person is overwhelmed doing their best. And so the things they do tend to focus on are receipts. Like if you'd be better off in an audit, having a receipt for a bad deduction than having a good deduction with no receipt. And so it's like, yeah, if you have your receipts, even if it's like the logo is barely visible. The IRS is more likely to not catch that versus showing up with clothing with a clear logo visible and then being like, oh oopsies, I lost the receipt.

Blake Oliver: [00:07:02] I wonder why some of these courses, some of these cases even get to court. Like, are the taxpayers just nuts? I mean.

Jasmine DiLucci: [00:07:11] Right.

Blake Oliver: [00:07:11] Why would you why would you do that? Yeah. When you're so clearly in violation.

Jasmine DiLucci: [00:07:17] I think you just don't know the process. And that's where, you know, I think there's this idea of fairness, right? Which I mean, also I agree with. Right. But it's like the government has to operate to some extent with just they can't believe you. They can't just like believe, you know. So I think a lot of business owners, they're like but it's a business expense right. And it's like, well you just you kept actually no support. Um, and did it wrong. And so, um, the best business owners will get representation and like, the best cases are never published as tax court cases. They are settled in appeals or settled with tax counsel. Like you have multiple layers where nobody actually wants to take this to court. And usually it's it's honestly people that are unrepresented or poorly represented that take it all the way to court with a really bad argument.

Blake Oliver: [00:08:02] Tell me about your practice. Um, you have a you are an enrolled agent. You became an enrolled agent when you were in high school. Yeah. And you have a law degree. You're a lawyer? Yeah. And you're a CPA? Yeah. Um, that's a lot. What? What do you spend most of your time on outside of, you know, content creation in your in your in your practice? What are you doing? Is it tax resolution. Is it tax preparation. Is it do you do other things.

Jasmine DiLucci: [00:08:28] It's a little bit of everything. So I run the firm. Right. And so usually that basically means I'm involved in the most difficult elements of each area. So I'll say I probably spend the least amount of time in accounting. We do have a whole accounting division that I have someone running pretty much fully. So I spent a lot of my time on more complicated tax planning. Um, definitely some of the IRS cases I like to always part of. It's also like, I want to see the most recent stuff that's going on, because all the time I spend in those areas is like, what makes the content good, right? Like, as much as I can Delusionally believe people just like, want to watch fun tax content. Like, it's it's the being really valuable and useful and up to date that I think is my big differentiator. So it's usually tax planning and um, and IRS resolution and then sometimes on harder tax returns.

Blake Oliver: [00:09:17] Irs resolution. Um, seems like a very challenging thing to do because working with the IRS is difficult. I, I have never had to I've never been a tax CPA, so I never had to call in. But I hear stories about like every day waiting on hold, getting disconnected, being transferred around a zillion places. How do you do that and keep a smile on your face?

Jasmine DiLucci: [00:09:47] Well, first off, you know, as a tax professional when you're licensed, so either a tax attorney, CPA or enrolled agent, you can be on a power of attorney. And then you get a special phone line with the IRS. So that's the number one thing is I get typically better people and you get through to them faster. Um, but like, you know, like with anything when you know what to ask because you know, the process. I know when, like, they're giving me the wrong answer. I know, you know, I know when they're just being lazy, giving me the wrong answer. I also, a lot of times can bring what they're what they should be doing to them and get them to do it. So it's it's like when you go in with so much more information, it's it's way easier. Mhm.

Blake Oliver: [00:10:28] And and what about the hold times. Waiting on hold. Are you, are you sitting there at your desk waiting on hold. Or does this is this the practitioner priority service line.

Jasmine DiLucci: [00:10:38] Yes. We have our own phone line. And then there's actually a service that professionals can pay for that skips the line, which the IRS is fighting. They don't like it, but basically we pay for a service that literally like sits on hold with the IRS 24 over seven, and then they just slot you in when you call their phone number. And the IRS has been trying to find ways around it, but they don't have great technology and haven't figured it out.

Blake Oliver: [00:10:58] My tax guy uses that. We won't name it to you. No. But like it's it's it's so fascinating because it's like a whack a mole game they're playing. Right. Every time the IRS figures out how to shut down one of their numbers, they add another one. And the IRS isn't.

Jasmine DiLucci: [00:11:15] Exactly just get better at answering the phone. And then we wouldn't need the service.

Blake Oliver: [00:11:18] That's right. Well, except now we have this federal freeze on hiring, and I guess that's going to impact the IRS as well, I'm sure.

Jasmine DiLucci: [00:11:25] Yeah.

Blake Oliver: [00:11:26] Well, so you do you do a good amount of tax resolution work. And I imagine that is because whoever prepared the return didn't maybe made some mistakes. Or maybe there was a strategy that wasn't exactly, um, you know, legitimate in the eyes of the IRS. What are the what are the most common mistakes that you see other preparers making when you get a case?

Jasmine DiLucci: [00:11:54] I see so much stuff, and it's just when I get a return. Now, I don't assume anything is correct. Um, most common, I would say. I mean, there's some there's, I would say the worst mistakes to make on a return are things that I can tell are wrong without looking at the support. Like, um, so for example, three schedule C's with the loss, I basically know we've got a problem. Maybe this person magically has three businesses that just make no income. More realistically, not all three are businesses at all, you know? So, um, I would say that, um, it's tough to say like mistake. What ends up happening is Taxpayers don't know what's going on. They know they don't know what's going on. They think their professional is going to accommodate for the fact that they don't know what's going on, when in reality it's like an offset of responsibility, right? The professional will be like, well, the taxpayer told me xyz unrealistic representation. That is obviously not the case. Let me just put it on the return. That way I'm just.

Blake Oliver: [00:12:58] Taking the numbers they gave me and using them for the return.

Jasmine DiLucci: [00:13:02] Yeah. And then it's it's just that. And that goes back to why I'm so like honestly like passionate about this and trying to deliver stuff directly to people, even though a lot of times nobody wants to learn or a lot of people don't want to learn tax, they want their professional to handle it. But it's like nobody cares about you, like you. And someone saying, it's okay, it just doesn't matter because you're going to be left holding the bag. And when you show when the IRS shows up and they hear you say that, my tax professional told me it it carries like it carries like negative weight. Like honestly it's just right. They first they for sure don't care. It's like worst case scenario or best case scenario. They also care about your preparer, but realistically, they don't care about the preparer, they care about you. And so it's like you're just with the bag every single time. And so that's what's so frustrating about people that post all this like honestly like tax fraud online. And then people are like, oh, they're fighting for me. They're trying to look for those loopholes. And it's like, they're really just like putting you in a terrible spot and that's it. And they're not going to take the responsibility for it.

Blake Oliver: [00:14:04] Well, the the influencers spreading tax fraud misinformation are telling you what you want to hear, and your tax preparer is in the uncomfortable position of then having to tell you, no, sorry, that's wrong, which is not something that we want to be in the business of doing with our clients, saying no to them constantly. So it puts us in a tough position where we either have to like, be like the IRS. Which nobody wants to be from a customer service standpoint. We don't want to be saying no all the time, but if we if we don't, then we're in the position of helping our clients.

Jasmine DiLucci: [00:14:43] Do fraud.

Blake Oliver: [00:14:45] When we're the worst case.

Jasmine DiLucci: [00:14:46] Exactly. And that's where I've tried to focus is like. And that's why even when you watched my like, clothing video, right. It's like I could have given a really short video and been like, here's the rule. But I think the problem where I think like that dynamic you just talked about, right? We've got the person telling you what you want to hear, and then you've got your tax professional telling you what you don't want to hear. But what typically both people don't do is like like get you to the answer. You know what I mean? Like, the person telling you what you want to hear is just giving you misinformation. There's not even a way to get to that answer. That's real. But what tax professionals can do that would be really good is, is instead of being like, no, that's not deductible. You know, people are like, but are you sure? Are you are you wrong? Did you look at the you know what I mean? Like taking them to the answer where it's like, well, there's these 80 court cases that saying that it's not deductible and there's literally no court cases that say it is. And so I would love to deduct it for you. But what do you think? Or you know what I mean. Like more of getting people right. Communication that gets them there where they feel like you're still on their side and you're actually trying to protect them. You're not just like a negative Nancy.

Blake Oliver: [00:15:46] Right. Yeah. We don't want to be the negative Nancy. We want to be the yes man or woman. But it's hard and it's hard to like. I mean, even in your video, it takes, what, 14 minutes or something to explain the whole thing. And you did research on this, and you're very good at explaining it very succinctly. Yeah. Like, we can't do that with every client. And maybe, you know, we haven't done all the research. It's a tough.

Jasmine DiLucci: [00:16:09] Situation to send the video I don't know. Right.

Blake Oliver: [00:16:11] No, I mean that's a great service that you're doing right. Is can I just like email them the video answer here. Here if you want to. No it's not deductible. And if you want to dig into why, here's why.

Jasmine DiLucci: [00:16:23] Yeah. Um.

Blake Oliver: [00:16:25] So one of your, um, something that you talk a lot about or you've talked about in the past is implementation over theory when it comes to tax avoidance and tax strategies. And that you you value the implementation. Tell me more about that. Like what's the problem with with people who are spreading theory versus like implementation.

Jasmine DiLucci: [00:16:52] Yeah. I mean I mean that's the whole that's the whole game, right? The actually how is it implemented? And I think there's this, I don't know, a disdain for the tax return. You know people, oh you just prepare tax returns. But it's like that's the harder part in my opinion. Um, because that's where all of it's implemented, right. And so you think of your classic scenario where someone sells you a $50,000 tax plan and they tell you you can do this short term rental loophole and whatever this, that and the other. And I just saved you $300,000. Well, I mean, if it's not on the return that way, Especially in a way that actually saves you the tax then. Like, what did we just do? Nothing. And so but to me that implementation is the hard part. Right. So it's like people talk about the short term rental loophole. Everyone knows about it. You don't need to like pay someone to tell you about it. Again, the hard part is how like someone telling you, how is it actually going to get implemented? Do you need an election statement? Do you what support do you need to keep on file? Like what log do you need? And so a lot of my time is also spent on audits where of course they don't have any of that. And they're like well I wasn't told about any of that. I paid some person astronomical amounts of money to just tell me about the idea. Meanwhile, we're in the audit where I'm like, you rented it out to one person. You didn't keep the support you needed. Like, it's just an uphill battle. And now we're spending tens of thousands of dollars defending something that could have been really easy if it was just advised on the front end. So to me, that's that's the real value.

Blake Oliver: [00:18:18] So in that example, what was missing documentation essentially.

Jasmine DiLucci: [00:18:24] Yeah, all the support. So sometimes I've seen people where they don't, for example, short term rental loophole. You don't even rent it out. Do you qualify? No. Because you have to actually have rented it out, you know, for seven days or more. Um, so yeah, in the case that I'm thinking of like specifically an audit, I mean, it's just it's it's not good, right? But, um, a lot of losses, multiple schedule sees with the loss. There were situations where basically like one unique thing, for example, would be they manage their own properties. And I actually see this a lot. People manage their own properties. So then they pulled the expenses from the management of their own properties and separated it with a just a big loss on like a schedule C um, so not only do I think that helped trigger the audit, but now whenever you're practically in an IRS audit, it's like we just have extra hurdles to go over. Like had we just put them as expenses on the properties themselves or had like a clean set of books if we wanted to pull it out for a separate business. But we had neither. And so now we we, I think, helped trigger the audit. I don't think we looked credible. And it's we're having to perform more work to show that they should still be deductible.

Blake Oliver: [00:19:35] So it's easy to create the tax plan and to tell somebody about this rule. But it's hard to actually implement it. And so there's.

Jasmine DiLucci: [00:19:46] Yeah, in theory everything's I guess hard. But it's like it's the bridge over. And what I get really frustrated with is people think the ideas of the thing. So they pay crazy amounts for that. And then they like go use TurboTax. Right. So it's if you can't bridge it over, then you didn't get any value.

Blake Oliver: [00:20:02] So how do you in your practice like manage the implementation of these plans in a way that ensures there is the documentation, uh, you know, yeah. Like how do you how do you keep track of it all? Because it is a lot to have to do. The plan is easy, relatively easy. Well, you know, it's not easy necessarily, but you just put it together and you're done. But then implementation happens over years, right? So how do you track it all?

Jasmine DiLucci: [00:20:31] I mean, most of our clients, whenever we think of like our ideal client, they're usually with us for many years in all of the different areas. Right. So it's it's more rare for us to have a client just come in for part of it. So our, our typical process is they come in, we do the plan and we're already going to be doing their bookkeeping and the return. So it's someone that we quite literally stay in contact with throughout the year. Um, so that's I mean.

Blake Oliver: [00:20:55] So you work with them constantly throughout the year. Are you are you doing accounting work for them as well? You said you have an accounting division.

Jasmine DiLucci: [00:21:04] Yeah, yeah. Our typical client is going to be a business, usually over like a million in gross receipts that just wants it off their plate, like everything. So not to say we don't have people that are in only one area, but we try to make it. I mean, again, to me, it it really is like you destroy part of the value when you separate all this stuff into different places, and not that you can't. But then it takes a business owner that's even more on top of it versus going somewhere where, like, we can all we all communicate with each other.

Blake Oliver: [00:21:35] Are your new clients, folks who are coming in with tax resolution cases mostly, or are they coming in like what brings I know that you get a lot of folks from social media. So that's why I, I assume that, but I'm curious to know, like what what are their situations when they come to you.

Jasmine DiLucci: [00:21:52] The just in general or the tax resolution cases just.

Blake Oliver: [00:21:55] In general? Yeah. Like like like you know how because you know, often you have like a lot of cleanup work to do.

Jasmine DiLucci: [00:22:03] Yeah.

Blake Oliver: [00:22:03] Before you can actually get to anything else. Like is that, is that your experience.

Jasmine DiLucci: [00:22:08] Um, it really varies. So I would say, I would say our we have a couple ideal clients. Um, our typical client, I would say the person that most comes to us, maybe because of the information I put out there, right? My information is more this is legal. This is how it needs to be done. And you want to protect yourself. And I think that tends to attract honestly, I think more prudent, larger businesses so that I would say our ideal client. A lot of times is just like a larger business that wants accounting, tax returns, tax planning. And they don't want like when you're a larger business, you know, without having to even think about it. You know that just the time the IRS can take up from you. Leaves you with a loss, even if everything's correct. Right. And I think that's where a lot of people struggle when they have smaller businesses. They think, well, I'm doing everything right. It should be fine. And it's like, that's not even the like. If you didn't keep the receipts properly, you can have deducted all the right stuff and like, you are actually going to go sink in like 1000 hours in defending yourself in an IRS audit instead of spending 1000 hours making more money.

Jasmine DiLucci: [00:23:10] So I would say our ideal that's our classic client that I think is most attracted to us. We also do problems, IRS problems. And so, um, they come in, it just comes in different every time. Um, so we do a lot of cases that are like, they just owe the IRS and can't afford to pay it. Um, we do obviously audits and disputes, but, um, it's tough with IRS stuff sometimes. Like, the dollar number is not worth like what they would have to pay us. And that's why I try to also give a lot of the information out for free. And I've also got like a free tax community. So I'll try to like answer people's information, actually give information about how they can handle it on their own, which in my opinion a lot of times is better than them handing it to the professional that they can afford. Right.

Blake Oliver: [00:23:58] It's better just to settle it, given the size of the of the the dollar value we're talking about, than to pay a professional or to pay you to to sort it out.

Jasmine DiLucci: [00:24:09] Yeah. I mean, I think the hardest thing with the IRS stuff, and this is why I've been so transparent with it is it's not necessarily brain surgery, it's just that you can't go look it up anywhere, right? It's like it's. And it's not common sense. At least I think it's not common sense. Right. So you can't just call the IRS and get a really good explanation. You usually call the IRS and get confused or get like four different answers. And so that's why I've been trying to put so much information out there, because there's so many disputes that are easy. Easy, I would say easy to solve if you just have a few critical pieces of information, but people are missing that information. So and then they just approach the whole thing wrong. A lot of times both them and their tax professional approach it just completely wrong. They're writing they're sending a letter to the wrong place. They're giving long explanations. They're not, you know, they're giving the stuff that's not needed and attaching none of the stuff that is needed. Um, so that's where I try to, like, provide that information. And then usually with a large enough case, it's not worth testing it yourself. Right. If you owe $300,000 to the IRS, you're like, I could follow Jasmyn's Jasmine's free advice online, but it may make sense just to like, make sure there's like not even a 1% chance that this gets messed up.

Blake Oliver: [00:25:19] So how has your social media presence changed your practice?

Jasmine DiLucci: [00:25:26] I mean, it's grown it. Yeah. Um, honestly, when I first got onto social media, I didn't think of it as marketing, which probably no one would believe me. But I started doing videos as, like a couple years ago, and they were way worse. And I just, I found myself like repetitively saying the same thing to people. And so this was at a time where I didn't believe that anyone wanted like, or most people don't really care about accurate information. It's only of course, the people that are in like immediately need the service that want real answers. But I would talk to so many of them on our sales calls, and a lot of them honestly were like too small of cases to take in. And so then I was like, I'm repeating myself. I obviously like to help people, but not at the at the detriment of just like constantly being like my energy taken away. I'm like, there's got to be a better way. So I started doing videos, um, for that purpose.

Blake Oliver: [00:26:20] And were you doing these, like on Instagram or YouTube to start? What was your format? Yeah.

Jasmine DiLucci: [00:26:26] Mostly YouTube.

Blake Oliver: [00:26:27] Youtube. Okay.

Jasmine DiLucci: [00:26:28] And I've taken down some of those since my like some of them, I'm like, I don't even know. Like, you learn how to do the video stuff. I didn't know what to do.

Blake Oliver: [00:26:36] Were you just doing them with, like, your webcam on your computer? I mean, how did you get started? I think that's a big barrier for a lot of people.

Jasmine DiLucci: [00:26:43] Yeah. It is. And that's why I tell people. I mean, it's like in our profession, it's the information that's most valuable. Like, sure, people, a good video, like a clear video is better. But but yeah, I just started with like loom. I had some not realizing it was like at least the way I did it. It was very low quality camera. So it was like super blurry. But one of my best videos at the time, we got like 12,000 views. It was about corpse and um, I just spoke straight into the camera.

Blake Oliver: [00:27:10] It's the information. Like you said, if you're putting out valuable information, people will forgive the production value.

Jasmine DiLucci: [00:27:16] Yeah.

Blake Oliver: [00:27:17] And and now you've upgraded, right? And you've got the the studio kind of look.

Jasmine DiLucci: [00:27:21] Even then, you know, I'm still figuring things out. But I have to say.

Blake Oliver: [00:27:24] I love that your office still looks like the office of a CPA. You know, it's like I know exactly what that looks like, so.

Jasmine DiLucci: [00:27:31] Oh, yeah.

Blake Oliver: [00:27:31] You know, it's like.

Jasmine DiLucci: [00:27:32] Going to practice, you know? I mean, it's.

Blake Oliver: [00:27:34] Yeah, this is legit. Yeah. Um, so let's go back to the beginning. Um, you got your enrolled agent, uh, license in high school. Not many people do that. What what what sparked that at such a young age?

Jasmine DiLucci: [00:27:50] It was my my family. So it's not like I just woke up one day and wanted to do tax, but both my mom was a CPA, and then my dad's an enrolled agent, and, um, you know, I was like, all I ever knew, and I think, I think I always was still pretty practical. So just early on, I knew that I wanted to be good at something, and I wanted to it to be something that people cared about. And, um, and I think because my dad was so loved business, I just like, naturally tended towards that as well. And so I knew I could run my own business doing it. So it checked all the boxes and nothing ever like was more interesting to me. Um, so like in eighth grade, I was like, I want to be a tax attorney. And so then in high school, it was my dad actually pushed like, basically was like, you should become an enrolled agent. And I was like, okay, sounds good.

Blake Oliver: [00:28:36] So as a kid, were you, like, hanging out at the office during tax season a lot?

Jasmine DiLucci: [00:28:41] Is that I mean, my parents worked a lot from home, so yeah, I would just be around it all the time. But they ran a very small firm. So I think like and that's where I think a lot of tax professionals struggle because it's, it lends itself to running your own firm. But then the hardest part is not even the tax law. It's like it takes all these elements to run a good firm. Yeah. You need you need tax law. But then you also need honestly like how to run a business. Like I would say, our business is largely a recruiting business and then like finding good people, working with those people, well, it's like to create a good service requires so many different elements. So my parents, my mom was so good at tax, just like and that that's probably what drew it to drew me to it the most. But I don't think I ever saw myself going this direction because they ran a really small firm, and it didn't seem like they had a lot of money and, or and they were like struggling, you know? And so I viewed it as like, well, this can't be that lucrative because, um, you know, she was like constantly working. I would see her get like, yelled at by clients like, you know, just like kind of when you don't when you don't take in the right clients and set up the right processes. Like that's what ends up happening to a lot of professionals, which is why I also spent some time kind of just trying to, like, help professionals build better firms because it's like literally better for them and obviously better for the client.

Blake Oliver: [00:29:57] So your your parents had their own practice. Was it just them?

Jasmine DiLucci: [00:30:02] Yeah, basically they had some part timers, but they it was I was like I watch a lot of hormones. So like his thing is like genius with a thousand hands. It was definitely very like my mom did most of everything. And then she had these like little helpers that she, like, hadn't hired or trained properly. So there were a few people, but it was it was just a very small firm.

Blake Oliver: [00:30:23] And now, have you taken over the the business? The family business?

Jasmine DiLucci: [00:30:27] Yes. Yeah. So, um, yeah. So the I guess the path was basically I got my enrolled agent, I went to college, did accounting, I got my I got a master's in finance in the four years while I was there, because I needed to get all my 150 CPA credits and everything. Um, and then went to Ernst and Young for a year. Uh, but then my mom got sick. So basically I ended up, um, being like, well, I guess I have to take over this thing. Um, so it really wasn't the plan. I just assumed I was going to go straight to law school and just go that path, but, um, ended up, you know, she was really, like, as much as my parents both ran it, my dad was only doing tax resolution, which was like a smaller percentage of the practice. My mom was the CPA that, like, did all the returns and accounting, which was the majority of the practice. And so I just overnight was like, I don't know, I'm gonna have to figure this out. Um, so I took it over and, um, and then took an extra year to, like, figure out what I was doing and run it. Um, and luckily, we do have a couple critical employees at that time that are still with us today. And then went to law school while running it. Wow. That was probably like the three hardest years of my life.

Blake Oliver: [00:31:36] Yeah, that's that's that's amazing. How long did law school take? Were you, like, in it full time?

Jasmine DiLucci: [00:31:42] Like three years. Full time? Yeah. Full time? Three years. And just. I would go to law school. I would come back and then work into the evening. And I was reviewing all the returns. Back then, I was very involved, like, even more involved in the work. Um, it was a lot. Yeah.

Blake Oliver: [00:31:58] So, So where is the how is the firm growing? Like you, you have scaled it up. Where are you at? And you know.

Jasmine DiLucci: [00:32:06] Yeah. I mean, we're growing and it's crazy. I think, um, I mean, the biggest unlock obviously social media has helped a lot, but obviously. But then you end up having a lot of inflow and then there's a million other problems that it creates. Um, today, like where I'm at, that's just like, wildly different than where I've been in the past would be like, it really is just like the people. It's like I because of social media, I would say what's even more important than the clients that's brought in is the people, the employees that I've been able to attract. And that's been critical. And when I look at it today, it's like, it's crazy. We have we have such an amazing team. And it's like, so I have so many people that just, like are all in, like, do whatever it takes, are just experts in their field, like, move with such speed. Um, And, you know, it's one of those limiting thoughts you have when you're an earlier firm. You think, you know one's going to care as much as me. Like no one really, I don't know. No one really cares. They're not going to be as good. I'm gonna have to do everything myself. And so for so long, that's kind of like I had good people, but it's just it's just different right there. So I had my hands in, like, every element of the firm. And you just literally cannot do that and grow. And so I was taking all the sales calls. I was reviewing all the returns and then going to school full time and like, whatever it was, like it was me.

Blake Oliver: [00:33:28] And so yeah, you can you can do that for a little while, but not for too long. I mean, a few years at most. Right? Right. That's interesting. So you said, I think I heard you say that your your business is actually like, did you say recruiting?

Jasmine DiLucci: [00:33:43] I mean, I would call it I would call it an accounting firm. I think it's, it's the bottleneck is it's a supply limited firm. Right. And so a lot of industries, there are demand constrained or supply constrained. And what's our supply? It's people.

Blake Oliver: [00:33:57] Interesting. And then the other thing that's a bit, um, you know, not what I would expect is the social media has brought in customers, clients obviously, but it's also been huge for bringing in those people to serve those clients.

Jasmine DiLucci: [00:34:13] Huge. Yeah. Did you expect.

Blake Oliver: [00:34:15] That when you started?

Jasmine DiLucci: [00:34:16] I didn't even know. I hadn't thought about it, honestly. I just like when I started, there was not even a .01 percent of me that thought that, like, this is going to grow. Like it was, I'm going to I'm really excited. I'm going to get like 500 subscribers or a thousand subscribers. And for the first like multiple years, that's what it was. I mean, I just there was no part of me that thought that this would be possible.

Blake Oliver: [00:34:39] How long did it take for your audience to explode like it has?

Jasmine DiLucci: [00:34:43] It took, um, I mean, I started in 2021, I would say maybe mid 2021 and then so a couple of years, I would say at least two years. I wasn't nearly as consistent, the videos weren't as good, and I was pregnant. And so I like, you know, so there was there were things in between, but other things.

Blake Oliver: [00:35:02] To worry about.

Jasmine DiLucci: [00:35:03] Yeah. So I was doing other stuff. But, um, what do you think.

Blake Oliver: [00:35:08] Made it take off?

Jasmine DiLucci: [00:35:09] Well, I got way more serious about it. I mean, I'm trying to remember, I think so it was. It was really last year. I mean, it was basically 20, 24. So I'd say March of 2024, I got consistent. That was one thing I changed, honestly, a lot of little things at once. So I started posting once a day on shorts. Um, I think also switching to reaction videos was huge. That's probably the biggest.

Blake Oliver: [00:35:30] That's how I found you. That's how I got you got into my feed was those reaction videos.

Jasmine DiLucci: [00:35:35] Yeah, that's probably the biggest thing. And then, you know, I put on more makeup and then I had hired someone that was helping me with some of the social media stuff. So I had kind of got those elements in place. But the reaction video thing, I don't know, I was just kind of fed up. I figured no one would ever watch my stuff. So I was like, you know what? I'm just going to be like, this is wrong, and that's wrong. And like, this other thing is wrong.

Blake Oliver: [00:35:54] Well, it's obvious that you care about getting it right. And so you're watching Instagram just like everybody. We're all addicted to our phones. And you just see all this wrong information going through your feed. And at a certain point, it must have gotten to you.

Jasmine DiLucci: [00:36:09] Yeah. I was just like, this is crazy. It's just like, it's not correct.

Blake Oliver: [00:36:14] Well, you're doing a wonderful service, I think, for the accounting profession by debunking these myths, I hope. You know, I hope it's getting out there to the people.

Jasmine DiLucci: [00:36:24] I hope so. Yeah. I've been I mean, it's it really is because, I mean, it's fun. I enjoy this stuff. It's like I enjoy tax. I love talking about it. So it's been really fun seeing the reaction, even especially with accountants, because it's like it's so much stuff that all of us have already been thinking, and it's like none of us had anyone, you know, to. It just it was like the only people to point to were saying it wrong. And so instead of just being bitter about it, it's been fun to like for it to have actually resonated. Like, I now finally feel like there are people who business owners who wanted this and agree with it. They just didn't understand it.

Blake Oliver: [00:37:01] How do you balance creating your content? Are you still doing it daily? How do you how do you do that and then go run your. It's a.

Jasmine DiLucci: [00:37:11] Practice. Yeah.

Blake Oliver: [00:37:13] What's your strategy?

Jasmine DiLucci: [00:37:15] Well first off, just like foundationally I work 24 over seven. So as much as I can be like, oh, it's like the first assumption is that, I mean, I just love what I do so much that literally, like, I'm in the office from like 8 a.m. to 10 p.m., so a lot of people won't agree with me or think, that's crazy, but that's part of part of it. I just work more, um, and including weekends, like seven days a week, maybe not 8 to 10, seven on Saturday and Sunday, but I absolutely come in and still work. Um, but otherwise, I mean, I have great people. It's just like goes back to the room, but that's what.

Blake Oliver: [00:37:49] It gets back to.

Jasmine DiLucci: [00:37:50] Yeah, I have one person specifically who's fully on marketing, and it's just, I don't know, for so long I was like, it was hard to it's hard to find someone that I feel like gets the way I see things, you know, and to some extent that is how I am online. It's the same thing with the business. It's like just gets how we do things around here and like how we care about clients and like how we want to like, be with people. And then to some extent that's translating it. You can call it a brand or whatever, but it's just like me. And then translating that on screen and really getting what we're trying to go for here. And it's like I found one person who just fully gets it. She's just, you know, so it's she coordinates the whole thing, makes sure. And then she, she quite literally like, thinks like me. So then a lot of those decisions I don't have to make because she knows exactly what I would say.

Blake Oliver: [00:38:40] So what I'm hearing here is there was a period in your life not that long ago when you were doing everything yourself? Yeah. And now you have recruited a team that is helping you to do a lot more. And yeah, you're still working a lot because you enjoy it, but it's very different. So my question is, was, was there a moment like an aha moment when you, you realized you needed these people or like that you could have other people help you?

Jasmine DiLucci: [00:39:13] I don't know. Yeah. Go ahead. What were you gonna say? Well, because I.

Blake Oliver: [00:39:16] Feel like when I talk to practitioners, like, that's one of the big barriers to growing their firm, it's letting go.

Jasmine DiLucci: [00:39:26] I think they might describe it as letting go. I think it's it's I view it as like this limiting belief that someone can't do it like me, you know, and it's it's. Yeah. So I've had to, like, relearn the same lesson over and over again. I mean, because I'll keep thinking, oh, well, this area is different. I can't find someone for that. That'll do it as well. And then I find someone that does it better and I'm like, what was I thinking? So. Right. I all last year was just this period of just constantly. So in March is when everything like really blew up. And so because of that, because earlier I was wearing all the hats, I was doing all the sales calls. Um, I was basically our tax manager reviewing all the returns, all the tax planning, 100%. Just me. Um, and then a lot of the resolution stuff I do have, my dad helps me with some of that, but he does more of the collections cases and I would do more like the IRS disputes. And so all of those just doing everything. And so and I do have help, I already had help with like the accounting and the prep of the returns, but just that higher level on all those things. I'm like who you know, and obviously the marketing, the videos was 100% me. Whenever I would send a video to be edited by someone, it's like they would make just ridiculous errors. And I'm like, do I have to guide this whole process? Like, you know, don't make me look like that.

Jasmine DiLucci: [00:40:41] Don't cut their like, I don't know. Just, you know, you have your hands just like, fully in everything. And then. So March is when it blew up and then it basically it was I couldn't could not I mean, I would just be on sales calls all day long. I mean, it was just I can't do any work. So, um, so that was the first thing I had to let go. And I found, I mean, I first, first worked with someone who helped a little bit, but, you know, when someone helps but they can't take it off your plate, like, you can't get your eye off the ball at all. That's where I was. And then magically, I mean, I found someone that I was like, do you need some training? Do you need some help? Do you need more of a script? And he's like, nope, got it. And literally had it better than me. And so that was the first time I think I was like, wow, something that I literally for the last, like, I mean, basically ten years thought no one could sell it like me because they don't they don't they don't both understand the service and are good at talking to people. Right. Because that's the problem. Accountants are like, understand the service. But they're not as good with sales. Salespeople don't even understand what they're selling if they haven't done a tax return accounting before. And he was able to just like, fill that role perfectly and, and take it 100% off my plate.

Jasmine DiLucci: [00:41:51] And then it's like I keep learning the same thing. So then later I'm doing all the marketing by myself. I had found I found an amazing tax manager better than me, just like so good with our clients. Um, and then it just kept happening, basically. So then the person I found for marketing, she's not just marketing, she, um, she. Honestly, I really feel like she thinks like me. And so when it came to, like, operations or like important decisions for the firm, she was able to know what I was thinking. Um, and if anything, sometimes if I like, I take I take time to digest stuff sometimes. So I'm like, trying to figure it out. She almost like, would identify it sooner, like, no, this isn't a good idea. We shouldn't do this, Jasmine. And then I would figure that out later and be like, wow, she really just figures it out without me. And so yeah, that's the process I went through. And whenever I've worked with accounting firms like accountants, because I do try to, like, help accountants grow their firm a little bit just because I struggled with it for so long. Um, that's the problem they think I can't like people aren't good, I can't, it's just it goes back to like, the good people just don't know about you or don't want to work with you. Like, you have to be able to recruit the person that is good because they exist. They're just really hard to get.

Blake Oliver: [00:43:05] So let's say I'm a tax professional who wants to get into doing more tax planning or tax resolution, the kind of work that you're doing. What what resources are there for me? How can I learn how to do what you do?

Jasmine DiLucci: [00:43:22] Um, I'm trying to think of, like, just one resource, like. So I have a free community. So I think that's one thing. There's no reason not to join it. Um, what's.

Blake Oliver: [00:43:31] The how do where do I find that.

Jasmine DiLucci: [00:43:32] You can go to actual tax law.

Blake Oliver: [00:43:34] Com actual tax law. Com okay.

Jasmine DiLucci: [00:43:36] Yeah. Yeah. So I think to me it's always like exposure to everything. So there's not just one thing. Um, how I've learned is by I wake up every day and I'm like, what am I learning today? And so, um, I think the easiest and best way to learn is both pairing studies with, again, that practical element. And so the practical element to some extent is other professionals, the more you can like, learn or understand from other professionals, uh, you will go so much faster. And so the free community I love, Bradford Tax Institute is actually my favorite just like tax resource. Um, I don't know why it's so underpriced, but it's crazy. Underpriced. It's like 20 bucks a month. It is literally. Wow. It would be insane not to purchase it as a tax professional. Um, and he actually does. I mean, it's articles, but then the the biggest differentiator is he cites to all of the support and court cases.

Blake Oliver: [00:44:29] So that's where you do your research for your videos.

Jasmine DiLucci: [00:44:33] That's one of the places I'll go to. And then I go to checkpoint.

Blake Oliver: [00:44:38] Checkpoint?

Jasmine DiLucci: [00:44:39] Yeah. So those problem with those is they're always more expensive. And so to me the Bradford thing is like you can't not get your value back no matter. You could literally be at zero and get your value back. Now if you have a larger firm or you have the money to spend, then checkpoint is probably the best next option. Yeah.

Blake Oliver: [00:44:57] What about all this? Like I talk in tax? Um, it seems like it could be really helpful for research. Have you tried any of these? I tax research tools.

Jasmine DiLucci: [00:45:06] Well, I don't know about tax research tools. Um, I was going to say I use ChatGPT the other day, and I actually just posted a video about it because it was so ludicrous. I, I had finished a video and I was like, I'm just going to see are there more court cases out there? Like, let's just see. So I went to ChatGPT and I asked the question and I was like, give me some court cases. It gave me a bunch of fake court cases. And then I was like, because I checked it with checkpoint and I was like, these don't exist. And then I asked it again and I was like, these are fake. Like, yeah, what is going on? Like where? Give me some real ones. And they're like, oh, I'm so sorry for the misunderstanding. Here are some real ones. Those were fake too. And I did about 3 or 4 times. I'm not kidding. I've never seen something so insane in my life. So. So that was an absolute no. It was crazy because I couldn't listen to instruction, which is what was actually very concerning to me. Um, so that was insane. I'm sure there are. I don't know, to me, it's like, and I will be able to get there and it will help, but I've got to think that checkpoint is going to use it the best or LexisNexis or all of these Bloomberg, you know, and so I still think those are the best go tos they've just got it's just the most comprehensive. And then I'm sure they'll find a way to supercharge it with AI.

Blake Oliver: [00:46:20] Yeah, they've got the databases there. If they can figure out how the AI can help you get it. Yeah, get get what you need faster without having to know all the search terms. That'll be. That'll be great.

Jasmine DiLucci: [00:46:32] Yeah. And it's already pretty good. I mean, a lot of times with checkpoint, you can do a pretty intuitive search. You don't have to go to sophisticated to get, like, exactly what you're looking for.

Blake Oliver: [00:46:42] What's your technology stack in your practice?

Jasmine DiLucci: [00:46:44] So many things. But the main stuff is um, so canopy for practice management I love it. It totally transformed my firm because we, you know, for so many years, um, like any firm, you start and I think this is back when, like, canopy wasn't as big of a thing. So we used other stuff, and then you start adding and you're like, well, it doesn't have this function. It doesn't have that function. Can it be does it basically all for us. So that one's been huge. Um, we use I'm trying to think of the other biggest main ones. I use a ton of calendly. Not that it's super complicated, but yeah, yeah, we use that for almost everything. Super helpful. Um, I actually really love, like, superhuman for my email management. Email management is just such a pain. I've heard.

Blake Oliver: [00:47:31] Great things about.

Jasmine DiLucci: [00:47:31] It. Yeah, yeah, I love it. And so it just makes it. I mean, I spend like half my day on email. It feels like. So anything that even makes it, like, marginally better is worth it. Um, we use slack for communication. It is crazy how much you can do for free on slack. So, um, so we love it. Um, and then tax software is probably the main thing and that's CCH.

Speaker3: [00:47:54] Cch um.

Blake Oliver: [00:47:56] Well, Jasmine, thank you so much for taking the time to chat with me and joining the podcast. Um, is there, uh, anywhere you'd like to send our listeners to learn more about you? You could also mention that community you have again.

Jasmine DiLucci: [00:48:12] Yeah, yeah. So actual tax law. Com so that is it's tax community. I'm putting everything in there. So I'm it's been so fun. Like seeing everyone engage and just ask questions. So people ask questions on the community board. And then I've also built out um stuff for IRS strategy like transcripts, notices, audits, as well as just some of the actual tax law, and then even let people submit information for free review. So like an IRS notice or an IRS audit, and then some of those all choose to do a video on so that everyone can benefit from it.

Blake Oliver: [00:48:44] Thanks so much for joining me. Great to chat with you.

Jasmine DiLucci: [00:48:47] Thank you so much.

Blake Oliver: [00:48:50] Thanks for listening. I hope you enjoyed this episode and that you learned something new. And if you did, wouldn't it be nice to get some CPE credit for it? Well, I've got great news. My new app, earmark CPE, offers free Naspa approved CPE credits for listening to podcasts, including this one. Visit earmark Cpcomm to download the app, take a short quiz, and get your CPE certificate. That's earmark Cpcomm.