Earmark Podcast | Earn Free Accounting CPE

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Erin Daiber: [00:00:00] I just think there's nothing worse that we could be doing for our people and our organizations than doing it the way we've always done it, because nothing in the world is the same as it was even five years ago. Right. I mean, everything is changed. And so how can you justify not changing how you've done things and how you're serving your clients? That to me, it just doesn't make any sense.

Blake Oliver: [00:00:22] Are you an accountant with a continuing education requirement? You can earn free Nasba approved CPE for listening to this episode. Just visit in your web browser, take a short quiz and get your certificate. Hello everyone and welcome back to the podcast. I'm Blake Oliver, CPA. Today I'm joined by Aaron Dabber, a CPA and the founder of well balanced Accountants Aaron. Accounting firms move beyond culture theory to actual operational implementation. And today we're diving into how to operationalize culture changes in your firm. Let's get started. Aaron, welcome to the program.

Erin Daiber: [00:01:03] Thanks so much for having me. I'm thrilled to be here.

Blake Oliver: [00:01:06] So Aaron, you are a CPA. You worked at the big four E and you have your own story of burnout. And I think burnout is probably the number one thing linked to culture challenges in CPA firms. At least that's my take. I'd love to get your feel for it. Tell us about your journey into culture at firms and helping firms with culture. Like what? What burned you out? I think we all have that story, don't we?

Erin Daiber: [00:01:40] Yeah. Oh my gosh, my story actually starts even further back than that. So maybe just quickly. When I went into business school, I remember telling my parents, I'm going to go get a business degree. And they said, you may have to specialize. What would you want to do? And I said, anything but accounting. That was the only thing I was clear about going in. And then I had this professor that told me at one point that I was good at accounting, and that I should really consider it as a career. And being that moldable stage of, you know, 19 or 20 years old. At the time, I thought, well, okay, I guess that's what I need to do. And so in some ways, I fell into the profession or maybe got nudged into it. And to be clear, I don't regret it at all. But that may have, you know, in hindsight, informed some of how it turned out for me, that it may not have really been the thing I was meant for.

Blake Oliver: [00:02:37] So. So you were in school. You were in college, and you knew you wanted to go to business school?

Erin Daiber: [00:02:42] Yes.

Blake Oliver: [00:02:43] And so then you chose accounting as that, like pathway.

Erin Daiber: [00:02:49] Yeah. Again. Got nudged into it.

Blake Oliver: [00:02:51] You got nudged into it.

Erin Daiber: [00:02:53] But, you know, again, I don't regret it. It was a great launching point. I loved getting started in the Big Four, having that built in community of friends and getting to work with such smart, fun people and with really cool and interesting clients who were doing amazing things. So it was an incredible learning experience. And what happened in my case was, I think, twofold. One, there was a natural personality mismatch with accounting and and myself. So I'm not naturally detail oriented. So I found that having to do some of that really detailed work, especially at the staff and senior level, was incredibly draining for me. And I would just get to the point where, you know, I would get points back from my manager, from the partners, and I just had nothing left to give. I could not, you know, I really couldn't care less about some of those details, as important as they may have been. So that definitely contributed.

Blake Oliver: [00:03:57] Did you did you not use the right font? I mean.

Erin Daiber: [00:04:00] Exactly. Wrong font, wrong color. Uh, you name it. Right. It the tiniest of details.

Blake Oliver: [00:04:08] So I have to ask, though. So how did you get recommended and pushed into accounting, though? If you're not, like, a detail oriented person. What what was what was the thought behind that?

Erin Daiber: [00:04:17] Uh, to be honest with you, I don't know. I don't know if I was a great test taker, and maybe I scored better than some of my classmates on the exams, and and that just led that professor to think that I was a natural born accountant. I mean, I could do it. It just took a lot out of me. And I think in terms of sustainability and having having my days be kind of easy and free flowing, that was not my experience at all. And I think it might be for some people who that detail orientation comes much more naturally. So it just took a lot more out of me to do a high level of work than it did for some of my colleagues. So I found that that really contributed to my personal burnout experience. And then layer on top of that, that really what was keeping me going were the people that I worked with. I loved going in and interacting with my colleagues on a day to day basis. And there were a few managers in particular that I really loved and enjoyed spending time with. So that fueled me where the details stuff was really draining me, and it kind of balanced things out. And then they left, and then I was sort of like floating out in the middle of the ocean with no life preserver, you know, trying to figure it out on my own. And that's where things really started to unravel for me in public accounting.

Blake Oliver: [00:05:40] Mhm. So you had some mentors, managers that you really liked working with. And they left as they tend to do. Right. And so uh, where were you in your career at this point?

Erin Daiber: [00:05:53] I was at the senior level, just starting to kind of manage engagements, work closely with staff, run smaller engagements, kind of take point on it.

Blake Oliver: [00:06:04] Mhm.

Erin Daiber: [00:06:05] So it was about three and a half years in.

Blake Oliver: [00:06:07] And the senior role is the most difficult point in your career as an accountant. Right. It's the most responsibility with the least experience.

Erin Daiber: [00:06:18] I think so and it's the biggest leap. So you know you go from being only responsible for your own work, for being an individual contributor. And all you have to do is wait for someone else to tell you what to do and manage your own time. Um, and then you go from having to do that to now managing teams. You have to deal with the people component of it, dealing with emotions and different personality styles and different learning styles. You're getting asked questions and interrupted every day. Your process, you know, your your way of operating gets completely thrown out the window because you just have to tend to everyone else and you're getting it from the other direction, from your managers or the partners, whoever's in charge. I just think it's the biggest step up, the biggest transition that you make for a long time. You know, from senior to manager, you're kind of doing the same thing, just a little bit higher level, but substantially the job doesn't doesn't really change that much.

Blake Oliver: [00:07:15] Okay. So you are doing the senior job and what what happened what uh what led you to leave?

Erin Daiber: [00:07:23] I again, once I lost my life preservers, those people that really were keeping me afloat in my day to day. That's when I started to look, uh, it's planted the seed in my mind of. Well, if these people that I respect and enjoy spending time with are finding the grass is greener on the other side than it must be. And so it made taking those calls from recruiters a lot easier, right? A lot harder to ignore all of those emails and voicemails. So, got in the conversation and started to look for a role that maybe would have what I told myself was more work life balance. And so I took at this point, you know, really the burnout had gotten pretty significant. I, I was driving to work, looking at other people, doing their jobs and thinking, gosh, that looks nice. Even the guys that were mowing the lawn on the side of the highway, I'm like, at least they get to be outdoors and breathing fresh air every day. And that's really when I started to tell myself, like, yikes, you might need to make a change, right? This isn't good. Your headspace is not in a good place. And so I ended up leaving. I worked in industry for a while. I was working as a financial analyst and got great experience there. Got to still utilize my accounting knowledge, but do it in more of a forward looking forecasting, a bit more strategic way. But I had lost all my peers, so I wasn't working with a very young team any longer, didn't have a whole lot of client interaction. It was much more insulated in that way. And and that's when I really started to think about, okay, maybe I need to make a more significant change because this doesn't feel it didn't solve all of my challenges and all of my hardships the way I thought it was going to.

Erin Daiber: [00:09:06] Uh, so that's really when I, I got into coaching, I signed up for a coach training program because it promised personal transformation, and I really went into it for the self-discovery. I needed to find out for myself what was that thing that was going to make me happy, make me feel alive in my day to day. Um, help me feel like I was having a real impact, but not basically dreading going to work every day. So I didn't sign up for that necessarily to be a coach, I really just wanted to learn about myself in the process. Um, I didn't want to go back to school and get another degree, only to find that wasn't for me either. So I just really was in a process of understanding who I was and what the difference was that I wanted to make. And so it was a bit of a windy path, but eventually, uh, discovered that I really liked coaching and working with people. Um, I had gone as far away from the accounting profession as I could. I would coach anybody but accountants and then eventually kind of boomeranged back to say, these are my people. That's my community. I still connect and really appreciate the the profession and those people that work in it. And I want to come back and help them to maybe have the skills and navigate through that tough period that I went through, knowing that there's other pathways. Right? There's other ways to deal with stress or pressure or uncertainty besides just leaving, sort of pulling the ripcord and getting out. So that was really my the, my initial why for getting into the work I'm doing now.

Blake Oliver: [00:10:41] Well, what did you like about accounting?

Erin Daiber: [00:10:45] I loved the people. First and foremost, I say it every time. I loved the people that I worked with. I just thought and still believe that our profession attracts some of the most bright and unique and creative and clever people that there are out there. I never have a boring conversation with an accountant very rarely, and especially if you dig into what they like to do outside of the office. I am constantly fascinated by what people are interested in and what really makes them feel alive every day. So I love the people. I also love the problem solving nature of it. So you know that there is a right answer. I'm a little bit, uh, I don't know about right answer, black and white, but that there's a good solution. So I liked that component of it.

Blake Oliver: [00:11:38] Me too. I think for me, it's that it's possible for everything to tie out. Uh. I came to accounting through bookkeeping. And there's nothing more satisfying than, you know, a reconciliation that just works on the first try. Because all the work you've been doing all, all month, you just nailed it, right? That is, uh, that's the dream and the the ability to to automate manual work, uh, and to have that work successfully, it's like like a machine. Yeah. It's it's invisible. Right. But it's still a very sophisticated information system. I love that part.

Erin Daiber: [00:12:18] Um.

Blake Oliver: [00:12:19] But I didn't love I didn't love the the system of the firm, if that makes sense. The the system that I had to work within felt very rigid. And it was a real struggle for me to be creative.

Erin Daiber: [00:12:37] Yeah.

Blake Oliver: [00:12:38] In my problem solving. And that's also what I loved is, is I loved getting a client that had a problem and it was my job to fix it or to solve it. But then, yeah, it was a struggle. Sometimes in the firm, especially the large firm, I was at top 25 firm. It was it was hard because there was this tension between me wanting to solve their problem and then the resources I had or the time I had to solve their problem. Right. Often those those didn't align for me.

Erin Daiber: [00:13:11] Mhm. Would you think do you think that's I know I'm not the one that's supposed to be asking the questions here, but is that what made you go off and start your own firm to have more of that creativity and flexibility and how you service and solve those problems?

Blake Oliver: [00:13:26] So. Well, so I kind of went reverse where I had a firm, I was doing independent consulting, and then I went to work for a large firm. But I did leave. I went into tech because I found the culture to be much more about, well, I mean, it's they they say it right? Mark Zuckerberg famously said, move fast and break things, I think. Yeah. If I'm crediting him properly for that. And so in accounting firms, it tends to be the opposite approach, right. Move slowly and don't ever break anything right. Which can be a little frustrating for somebody who likes to solve problems because I can't necessarily like here's an example. Um, I had a startup client, uh, in the what were they? They were like, um, bottled water, but it was like vitamin Water, that, kind of that kind of product in LA. And they were small and they had a small budget. And so what they needed didn't always fit into my time budget for them. I had this little tiny bucket of hours every month. Yeah. And I wanted to do so much more for them. And I know that they would be big someday, right? But I couldn't because the firm limited me in that way. Um, and I guess I just bring that up because I'm curious what your experience is working with accountants from all sorts of different firms. Like, is that a is that a typical experience? Um, like, is the issue in accounting the is that does that have to do with like the rigidity of these firms or. And I guess I bring this up because, you know, culture seems to be the number one issue we have in the accounting profession right now. Where I sit, it's a retention issue.

Erin Daiber: [00:15:14] Right?

Blake Oliver: [00:15:14] People people tend to leave a lot of people who are really good accountants, good CPAs tend to tend to leave. And and they're not even necessarily sticking in accounting anymore.

Erin Daiber: [00:15:25] Right.

Blake Oliver: [00:15:26] Right. Like such as yourself. Aaron. Right, right. Like, um. And so I am always curious to know, like, what can firms do to keep more of the people who are who are leaving?

Erin Daiber: [00:15:38] Yeah. I do think it's a rigidity. Rigidity. And maybe if if we were to kind of make a formula, it's a little bit of that. It's a little bit of the resistance to change. Um, maybe a fear of, you know, being a bit risk averse. Um, you know, when I hear of firms that. Well, we're just doing it the way we've always done it, that is like Kryptonite. I just think there's nothing worse that we could be doing for our people and our organizations than doing it the way we've always done it, because nothing in the world is the same as it was even five years ago, right? I mean, everything is changed. And so how can you justify not changing how you've done things and how you're serving your clients? That to me, it just doesn't make any sense.

Blake Oliver: [00:16:25] Right.

Erin Daiber: [00:16:25] Um, and so I think those are a couple of the things that are really hurting us being too, you know, too tied to the numbers, too focused on measuring things like measuring the billable hours or these, you know, sort of these we just picked these numbers out of nowhere. All right. Our realization, our utilization. But aren't there other ways we can measure that and measure productivity and still serve our clients in a way.

Blake Oliver: [00:16:50] Right.

Erin Daiber: [00:16:50] But people are really hesitant to let go of those things in service of something else. And I get it. It's the unknown. But there's a quote that says, you have to like, let go of the shore to get. Oh gosh, now I'm going to screw that up. But you basically have to let go of the way we've always done it if we want any other experience.

Blake Oliver: [00:17:12] I wonder if, like a lot of it has to do with, um, the experience in a large firm and that the way that you manage a really large firm isn't necessarily how you should manage a small one. But most accountants come up through a large Big Four or regional firm and then go out on their own. And so the management techniques we learn may be more suited to that big firm. But like in a small firm, they don't work as well.

Erin Daiber: [00:17:43] Right?

Blake Oliver: [00:17:44] Is that your experience?

Erin Daiber: [00:17:45] Well, I've seen that happen a few times. So. One example I can give is when all of your leaders have come up through a large firm where the culture is one of ownership, right? I don't ever feel like I was micromanaged in an in a large firm. I was given my tasks. I guess I was self-motivated and certainly had a team there to support me. But I got the work done. And when you go into smaller firms, sometimes that's not the those aren't the people that they've hired or that's not the culture that they naturally have. And so those managers come in with the same approach, just assuming these people are going to own it and really take responsibility over their work and get it done. And that may or may not be the case. And if it doesn't work, if there one way that they know how to lead is not getting results, they tend to go towards micromanaging. Well, I'm just going to have to either do it all myself or be on top of these people to get their work done. So and I do think there's so again, sort of that rigidity or the black and white that there's, there's not we don't have enough different leadership styles to pull from. And we're not doing a good job of connecting with our people and, and also taking a step back and saying what what's our end goal here? Right. What are we trying to do? And how can I do that in a way that works for the client, works for the firm, and works for these people? Uh, and isn't just so focused. Sometimes I think we just stay focused on the work and trying to get through the busyness.

Blake Oliver: [00:19:22] Right? There's I go to a lot of conferences, and I listen to a lot of people speak about culture. And that's often I mean, it's one of the top topics is it's very common. It's how do you create a good culture in your firm? Um, how do you get people to stay? How do you recruit people? Because we're a people business, right? Without the people, the firm is nothing. And but often it's a lot of talk, and it doesn't materialize in any real change. So everyone goes to a conference, or they they they listen to a session, they get excited about it, but then they go home and it just stays the same. Mhm. And so that's why you know the topic our topic today is how do we actually make this happen. Right. How do we operationalize it. But I guess before we do that can we just sort of like talk about this concept of like firm culture and why it's important I guess maybe that's obvious. Maybe that's obvious. So we already kind of talked about that, which is if you want to get people to stay in your firm, you need to have a good culture. But I guess then the question is, what does that actually look like? Like what? What is the kind of firm that people want to work for? Um, that's.

Erin Daiber: [00:20:44] Well.

Blake Oliver: [00:20:45] That's my question.

Erin Daiber: [00:20:46] Yeah, it's a great question. Well, when when I talk about culture, I'm talking about the values that we live by, not just the values that are on our website. Right. The ones that we actually are living. I'm talking about the behaviors that show up and that are accepted and tolerated and encouraged inside of a firm. And I'm really talking about how it feels to walk into that office every day. And so when you ask the question, what is it that people are looking for? They want to feel good. I mean, that just seems so basic, but they want to feel safe, supported, encouraged. They want to feel like this is an environment where they can be themselves, and on top of that, be the best version of themselves? Um, you know, they this this profession attracts people who are high performers who want to do a good job. They want to learn, they want to continue to grow. And we need to be providing those kinds of opportunities, and we need to be leading from the front. We can't be expecting our teams to do something that we're unwilling to do. So, you know, all of that contributes to the culture. And there's often two there's the one that we say we have, and then there's the one that we actually have. Yes. And there's a gap, uh, that, you know, depends on the firm, but there's usually a gap between what we say we do and what we actually do and how people actually feel when they're they're there.

Blake Oliver: [00:22:20] Yeah. And in the worst firms, it's, it's like to the level of hypocrisy that I just couldn't I can't stand it. You know, it's like, um, we we prioritize our people might be a pillar.

Erin Daiber: [00:22:34] Yep.

Blake Oliver: [00:22:34] That's just what I'm making up. That's not a particular firm, but I feel like every firm has these like pillars, four pillars, right, of our firm. And, you know, people first tends to be one of them. But then you see so many people who are like sitting there at their desks, just miserable, like, like coming into work, dreading being there. Or I think the worst part, um, was, you know, hearing from my colleagues, I never had this happen to myself, but there would be like a toxic manager or a partner who, like, they were just terrified of. Yeah. You know, and that just ruined their day every time they had an interaction with that person. So you have these values that are just completely not aligned with the actual experience that the, the staff are having.

Erin Daiber: [00:23:18] Yes. And it's the worst thing. It's absolutely terrible. I one of my favorite, uh, exercises I'll give one of my secrets away, but I love to put firm values up on a slide in a retreat and just not saying anything. And oftentimes they don't recognize them because they are not living those values every single day. Right. It's like you said, it's this pillar, but it's almost a, you know, a mythical thing out there that we're working towards, but not very intentionally. And so I think that's one of the first things that you have to reconsider when we're trying to move from this culture as a theoretical concept to actively growing and developing a culture inside of the firm.

Blake Oliver: [00:24:09] I would almost prefer it if the firms were just like the firms that are like, not people first were just open about it, sort of like how on on Wall Street it's like nobody expects a like an investment bank to put its people first. Right? Like it's it's all very much like if you bring in the dollars. Right. That's what matters. We don't really care about you And at least that's honest.

Erin Daiber: [00:24:32] Mhm. So it's a it's a fun exercise to think about you know what would. And sometimes I've done this with teams where I say if, if we were to just be observing your organization from the outside in and you can hear what's going on, you can see what's going on. What are the values? If I knew nothing else about it, what would I say? Your values are right. Is it profit first? Is it, you know, billable hour is king is. What are those things that we would actually use to define the current culture? Um, because it it usually is not anywhere close to what we want. And if we're to look at that in black and white on paper and say, oh gosh, no, I would never choose that as the place I want to spend most of my time, then that's where we that's a good place to start, right? Really acknowledging where we're at and where those, those gaps are.

Blake Oliver: [00:25:26] And, you know, there's probably a place in the world. For the firm that is, billable hours are the number one priority, and there's people who would want to work there. Sure. Be honest about it. Right. I guess that's my feel.

Erin Daiber: [00:25:38] Yeah. Just own it. Right? Own it. If that's how it is. And, you know, I think one of the the things that causes a lot of turnover and also just to expand the scope a little bit, it also causes mergers to fail is when we go in kind of not owning who we are, what we value, or trying to put on a good front, almost like in a first date. Right? We're on our best behavior, but that's not really who we are. And so eventually they find out who you are and how you operate and what you value, and then they'll leave, whether that's an individual that you've hired, which we know is incredibly costly, or if that's somebody that you've maybe acquired that I saw somebody present not that long ago, and they were talking about culture being one of the number one reasons for M&A activity to be unraveled.

Blake Oliver: [00:26:32] Your culture on your website doesn't line up with what the acquirer finds when they walk into the office. Okay, so getting those two things lined up right. The reality and the message that step I feels like that's step one.

Speaker3: [00:26:50] Well, I think.

Erin Daiber: [00:26:52] More so we have to define where we're at. Like let's get a starting point. What is the culture that we have today. Let's name it. Let's define it. Let's outline what those behaviors are that have contributed to it. We've really got to take radical ownership that we all created that culture, right? Even if we stepped into it, if you weren't, you know, if you weren't one of the founding partners and you stepped into an organization that already existed, you've likely contributed to that culture remaining the same. So we just all have to own that. We've taken part in that. And then we have to define where we're headed, what is the culture that we're looking for? So what are those values? Same thing. What are the behaviors that I would see. We have to make it more tangible. I think that's one of the challenges that firms have with operationalizing this concept is it feels so kind of nebulous and fluffy and they can't hold on to it. So they're like, I don't really know what I'm working towards. So we have to attach behaviors, you know, thinking about what people will say, how are people interacting, really putting some measures and observable behaviors around that end game, around that target?

Blake Oliver: [00:28:04] Okay.

Erin Daiber: [00:28:05] That gives you something to work towards.

Blake Oliver: [00:28:06] So then you have like the list of traits of the firm that that is what you want it to be, that that that is realistic. Right. That's not just some pie in the sky that doesn't match with what the firm actually does. Um, um, but then there's still I'm sure there's still a disconnect right between what the firm wants to be and where it is at. So how do we.

Erin Daiber: [00:28:35] What?

Blake Oliver: [00:28:35] Yeah. How do we get there? Because that's always the gap, in my view, is that, uh, you know, partners go to these retreats, they come up with this plan. And this isn't just when it comes to culture. This is when it comes to, like, anything, right? You go to the retreat, you make the plan, and then the plan never gets implemented. Right. And that's where the gap tends to be, not making the plan, but in executing it. So you focus a lot on actually making it happen.

Erin Daiber: [00:29:01] Implementation.

Blake Oliver: [00:29:02] Implementation. Yeah.

Erin Daiber: [00:29:04] So the hardest part that honestly the the defining the culture and coming up with the big ideas and imagining, even if that's not our normal area that we play in and spend our time in, that is the easy part. It's easy to write it on paper and put some revenue numbers towards that future vision, but absolutely. That's the hard part is, is putting it into action. The hard part is as soon as we go back into the office, as soon as we step back into our day to day, there is an almost insurmountable inertia that is just keeping you in that sway of busyness. Client service. Right? You're getting a million emails a day. You're taking care of your team. And so it takes way more effort than people anticipate to be able to keep themselves structured and accountable for any change, whether it's culture, whether it's implementing technology, implementing a succession plan, it's all of it's all the same, right? We have to have that structure. So I would say don't underestimate how much structure you're going to need and how much accountability. The other missing link is that we're not fundamentally changing the way we operate most often. Right. We go to the retreat, we have great ideas. We come back and we're going to try to solve this new problem with an old mindset or an old approach, and that won't work because we're just bringing the old tools to this brand new problem or challenge.

Blake Oliver: [00:30:42] Okay, so we have to create structure and accountability.

Speaker3: [00:30:44] Yep.

Blake Oliver: [00:30:45] To make sure that stuff gets done. And then we actually have to change how we operate.

Speaker3: [00:30:49] Yes.

Blake Oliver: [00:30:49] So, uh, how do we. I mean, what do we do? I guess it depends on the firm, right? It depends on what the firm wants to do, how they change, how they operate. But, like, give me, um, you know.

Speaker3: [00:31:03] I'll give you a few.

Erin Daiber: [00:31:04] A few things that I feel like apply to everybody knowing really the goal will be different for everyone, right? What our end game, what what success looks like should be different for everyone. That's what makes your firm unique and keeps your keeps your culture unique. Um, I don't think we want we really don't want a bunch of firms that are sort of copy paste of each other. That's boring. And there's a need for that diversity out there. Um, in terms of serving clients and, and the market. So that's not the goal. So you have your unique end game what success looks like. We have to start thinking about of course we've defined it right. We've got our definition of what those values are, what the behaviors are.

Blake Oliver: [00:31:53] Can we.

Speaker3: [00:31:54] Like go.

Blake Oliver: [00:31:55] To help to help visualize this. Like can can you give me some like standard uh, like values like let's, let's pretend, you know, let's pretend you're working with my firm. Right. What would be some of like, the values that perhaps we've identified.

Erin Daiber: [00:32:11] They might identify. I mean, I know it sounds cliche, but it might be something like people first the. Because I do think that's important. We need to value our most important asset. It might be innovation. It might be, you know, and again, some of these they do sound cliche because we've put them on a website and we haven't lived into them. Uh, it might be constant improvement.

Blake Oliver: [00:32:37] Mhm.

Erin Daiber: [00:32:38] Could be something like 1% better every day in terms of those. It's almost like mantras that you live by.

Blake Oliver: [00:32:46] Yeah. Well and the only reason there's nothing wrong with them, it's the only reason that they become cliches is because we don't live up to them. Right. And we use them a lot, but we don't live up to them. But I like I like innovation. That's, that's that's one that I would sign up for.

Speaker3: [00:33:00] Yeah. Growth.

Erin Daiber: [00:33:01] I mean I think growth.

Speaker3: [00:33:02] Yep.

Erin Daiber: [00:33:02] Service. Those are pretty common because again we're in client service mode. But you know I think the other interesting thing to look at is how do we have all of those values work together. Because sometimes client service comes in and trumps people first. Right. It's like no client service at the expense of our people. And now we've got some disconnect.

Blake Oliver: [00:33:27] Yes. Well, if we say people first.

Speaker3: [00:33:30] Then it's got to be people first.

Blake Oliver: [00:33:31] It's got to be people first, right? So then then this is where the operationalizing this comes in. Because when there's a conflict between these values, we have to decide what we do. Right. And in many firms, you know, top line revenue is prioritized and every request from every client is accepted. And that then causes us to struggle with our workload.

Speaker3: [00:33:54] Mhm.

Blake Oliver: [00:33:55] And which reduces our ability to innovate because we don't have any time to innovate. And it reduces our ability to put people first because we're just loading them up with as many billable hours as they can have. Right.

Speaker3: [00:34:07] Right.

Blake Oliver: [00:34:07] And that's hypothetical.

Speaker3: [00:34:08] Situation. Right.

Erin Daiber: [00:34:09] But that's where having these values defined, like what does it look like for us to put our people first? It might be being very strategic about what clients we say yes to. Maybe that actually means niching and having a red velvet rope policy that says we only accept clients that fit these categories and that treat our people with respect, and that who value our our services and who are willing to pay right, pay handsomely, who aren't going to nickel and dime us on our on our fees. So really defining it so that when those challenging scenarios come up or when maybe it's an enticing opportunity, right? A big client, high fees and we can convince ourselves that we should take it. We have almost like a scorecard to say, all right, am I is this actually aligned with what we say we want, even though because we know not all money is good money, right? Right. But we have a way to evaluate it.

Blake Oliver: [00:35:10] I feel like I'm still guilty of this, even though I run my own business and I'm not doing much in the way of accounting anymore.

Speaker3: [00:35:17] Mhm.

Blake Oliver: [00:35:17] Um, and the example is and maybe you can help me with this Aaron. The example is that, um, I have a lot of opportunities to travel and speak and go to conferences.

Speaker3: [00:35:28] Yeah.

Blake Oliver: [00:35:29] And I tell myself every year I tell myself, okay, that was too much. Because every time I'm gone, I fall behind on my work. My goals get set aside. I am just barely keeping up if not getting behind.

Speaker3: [00:35:47] Yeah.

Blake Oliver: [00:35:47] Uh, and I, I say yes to these things, even though I these events, even though I shouldn't, I know I shouldn't, but then I do it anyway. And I feel like that's kind of similar to, say, taking on every client that comes in. Right. Every tax.

Speaker3: [00:36:00] Return.

Blake Oliver: [00:36:00] And and I just get overloaded and then I tell myself, okay, next busy season because we do have a busy season in the conference world, right? I'm not going to do it and I do it.

Speaker3: [00:36:09] Mhm.

Blake Oliver: [00:36:09] So you know, how do I align my uh how do I align my Find my values, which is one of them, is like spend more time with my family and spend more time on the long term vision for my business. How do I align that with my my toxic trait of saying yes to every speaking opportunity that comes along?

Erin Daiber: [00:36:33] Right. Well, I'll tell you another story after this, but what I would say is I'm curious what the conversation is that happens in your head where you justify it because you said, I know I shouldn't.

Blake Oliver: [00:36:46] Right.

Erin Daiber: [00:36:47] But how do you justify it? Somehow you convince yourself that it's okay in the moment.

Blake Oliver: [00:36:52] Yeah I do. And it might be because there's a fee attached to it. So that's an easy way to justify it, right? It might be, um. Oh, here's a new event I've never been to. It's an opportunity to, uh, meet people, right. And develop my business. That's another way I rationalize it. Or just because, like, I haven't traveled in a while and I really enjoy it.

Speaker3: [00:37:16] Mhm. Right. Which are all.

Erin Daiber: [00:37:18] Okay. But again it has to fit in the bigger picture of.

Speaker3: [00:37:23] What.

Erin Daiber: [00:37:23] You want your life to look like. But it's amazing how quickly we can talk ourselves away from what we know we should do and convince ourselves that it's all right.

Blake Oliver: [00:37:36] So like.

Speaker3: [00:37:37] If I.

Blake Oliver: [00:37:38] So let's, let's, let's flip this back to the, say, imaginary like partner who has this tendency of taking on too many clients.

Speaker3: [00:37:48] Yeah.

Blake Oliver: [00:37:49] You know what? Like, how do you actually stop yourself from doing this? Like, uh, how do you do? You have, like, a mantra on the wall there? Do you have a a criteria for accepting new business? Do you what do you do? I mean, how do you operationalize this?

Speaker3: [00:38:09] Right. Well, I.

Erin Daiber: [00:38:09] Think we have to start with the human experience. Right? Like the question I asked you, what are you doing to justify, even though, you know, even though you've maybe defined exactly your ideal client, then this new client walks into the room and they, you know, they're saying all the right things. But again, you know, they're not the right one, but you're going to try to justify it in some way. So really recognizing what your pattern is and what those things are that are going to lure you in. We have to kind of shine the light on it sometimes that lives in the subconscious and we don't really know we're doing it. So that's first of all, we have to understand what that pattern is that we fall into. We also have to acknowledge what we're afraid might happen. So I think there's a bit of a scarcity mindset sometimes, like you said, hey, there's a fee attached. What if maybe it is about, hey, I'm worried if I start saying no to clients, that pipeline is going to dry up.

Speaker3: [00:39:01] What if there.

Erin Daiber: [00:39:01] Aren't any.

Speaker3: [00:39:02] More?

Blake Oliver: [00:39:02] That's one of them for sure.

Speaker3: [00:39:03] Yeah, yeah. You don't want.

Blake Oliver: [00:39:04] To say no.

Speaker3: [00:39:05] Right?

Erin Daiber: [00:39:06] If we say no, other people will find out we're not taking clients and they will go elsewhere. And then we're going to lose clients. And it's fun. Fun for me to take people down the path of what will happen next. What are you afraid will happen next? And usually within 5 or 6 steps we can go. We can get a firm owner to, well, we'll be bankrupt. We won't exist anymore, right?

Speaker3: [00:39:29] We'll have all.

Erin Daiber: [00:39:29] These clients leave and. And really, they're so far away from that in reality that that's not that's not true. That's not really going to happen. So we have to shift that mindset around it. So instead of the scarcity mindset actually practicing believing that when I say no to the wrong clients, I'm saying yes to the right ones, I'm really signaling to my ideal clients that I'm becoming and and committing to my expertise in their area. I'm here to serve them and only them so that I can be the best version for them, right? It creates sort of this exclusivity and a just that higher level of service for those ideal clients. But sometimes we that scarcity mindset is very powerful. And for an entrepreneur, you know, some of the pushback I get back from partners sometimes is that is just against everything I learned about being a business owner. You don't say no to money.

Speaker3: [00:40:28] Well, and that.

Blake Oliver: [00:40:30] Yeah, it goes against everything that I learned in public accounting, which is when someone in the hierarchy, when a partner asks you for something, you say yes, because you, you want to be the person that they come to in the future. You want to be seen as a team player. Um, so I never said no to anything.

Speaker3: [00:40:53] Right?

Blake Oliver: [00:40:54] And I still struggle to say no.

Speaker3: [00:40:56] Mhm. Yeah.

Erin Daiber: [00:40:58] And I think it's a practice of getting comfortable, comfortable saying no, realizing that you can live through it. And again it requires that mindset shift of not seeing it as a loss, but recognizing that if I say yes to something, I'm always saying no to something else. So by you saying yes to being at every conference opportunity, you're saying no to quality time at home, quality time with family, your rest and relaxation, whatever those. There's always a trade off.

Speaker3: [00:41:27] Yeah.

Erin Daiber: [00:41:28] And by saying yes to this client, I'm saying no to other things. There's always a trade off.

Blake Oliver: [00:41:35] I think you you alluded to it or you you mentioned it earlier that one of the big barriers to operationalizing culture change is just being too busy.

Speaker3: [00:41:45] Yeah.

Blake Oliver: [00:41:46] And I feel that myself. Right. So that's basically what I'm saying here. Is that like when I take on too many opportunities, I personally get too busy and then I fall behind in everything that I want to do, working on the business, and I'm working in it again. In it again.

Speaker3: [00:42:04] Yeah. Yeah.

Blake Oliver: [00:42:05] Um, so I guess. Clarifying what we want.

Speaker3: [00:42:11] Yes.

Blake Oliver: [00:42:11] And like really thinking consciously about it whenever an opportunity comes is that's that's one way that we can, uh, get out from being too busy to stop saying yes to everything.

Speaker3: [00:42:23] Correct.

Erin Daiber: [00:42:24] I'm wondering and perhaps even saying no to things you've already said yes to. Like cleaning up your own mess.

Speaker3: [00:42:32] In.

Erin Daiber: [00:42:32] A way, going back and saying, all right, if this is who we really aim to serve, we we kind of sold out on ourselves by taking on these clients or by saying yes to this type of work, and we need to create a plan to get out of that. Right. Finish out your your term of working with that client, but let them know we're not going to continue. We're going to help you find a new CPA to do this work going forward. Uh, we have to create that white space in your day to operationalize any change. Because if we're just completely maxed with doing the client work. There is no time to to take that step back and think about how am I going to execute on this, this change that I want to make, whether it's culture or technology? So yes, we have to create some breathing room.

Blake Oliver: [00:43:21] Is it possible to do this in a billable hours environment, or do you have to switch to like not tracking that getting away from utilization realization?

Speaker3: [00:43:35] It's a.

Erin Daiber: [00:43:36] Good question. I'm personally not a fan of the billable hour. I think that we can I mean, it's 2025. We can move beyond that. There's different ways of measuring productivity and effectiveness because we all know every hour is not created equal. I build a lot of hours that weren't good quality, and I build some hours where I was incredibly productive. So it's just I think we have to get away from this idea that that is the only or the best way to measure. I think you can if you you know, here's what I'll say in a firm that really needs to fix their culture in order to help their people. It might be too much all at once to get rid of the billable hour also. So I would settle for working with the leaders to shift their mindset and really start working on the culture component, and we can leave the billable hour alone for the moment. Ideally, that goes away too, because I think it would make a big difference. I also think that sometimes it's it helps to to use the culture as the foundation. And I'll tell you a little bit what I mean by this, but use the culture as a foundation to then get rid of some of those measures. So we have to start creating that culture of ownership and responsibility and, you know, commitment to the client, commitment to client service and to the team. If that's not there, and then we get rid of the billable hour. That could be challenging.

Blake Oliver: [00:45:11] I guess I sort of just assumed, um, that, like, being too busy is the main cultural problem in firms, because that's the thing we talk about a lot. But I guess maybe I've made an assumption there that isn't true because you mentioned ownership responsibility. Like, why are why do firms lose people? I should have probably asked you that at the very beginning. I just assumed it was because they were so overworked.

Speaker3: [00:45:43] I think it's I think that's.

Erin Daiber: [00:45:45] A huge component of it. Right. We work a lot in this profession, and unfortunately, a lot of people who are in leadership positions grew up with that. And there's still this residual idea of, well, I did that. And so what's wrong with people? I this is just normal. They should be willing to do that too. So absolutely, busyness and overwork is a huge part of it. I also think people leave because they're not being appreciated. They don't feel a sense of appreciation and, uh, respect, even at the lowest levels. Everyone deserves that. Uh, they and that can come across in a number of different ways. It might be just actually telling them that you appreciate them and being genuine about it. It may also be that you're pouring into them, whether from training or, you know, caring about who they are as individuals, letting them have flexibility, treating them as adults, not micromanaging all of those things, contribute to someone feeling appreciated and respected as a part of the team.

Blake Oliver: [00:46:55] So you're telling me that I can. I don't have to reduce the amount that my team is working if I just show them respect and stop micromanaging them like that can improve the culture.

Erin Daiber: [00:47:07] Ideally it would be.

Speaker3: [00:47:08] Both.

Erin Daiber: [00:47:09] But yes, it would make a big difference when people leave. I do a lot of exit interviews for firms, and a lot of the time that comes up in the conversation. Yes, I'm leaving because I don't feel like I'm a valuable or valued member of the team. I'm not, I haven't no one's no one's training me. No one's taking me under their wing and guiding me and helping me grow. I'm just over here struggling and suffering. And then I get a bad performance review. And so I'm going to go somewhere where I feel like somebody cares about my development and cares about me getting better.

Blake Oliver: [00:47:43] So I was, as you were saying, that I was thinking, how do we show our team appreciation and respect? And you just gave me the clue there, which is help them grow.

Speaker3: [00:47:53] Yes.

Erin Daiber: [00:47:54] And care about who they are. Let's, you know, talk to them about what's important to them, what makes them tick, what's their why? What's important to them outside of the office? Really getting to know people not just as, you know, the person that comes in and gets the work done for you.

Blake Oliver: [00:48:13] Not just the time sheet.

Speaker3: [00:48:15] Right?

Erin Daiber: [00:48:16] Right.

Blake Oliver: [00:48:17] Yeah. It's funny. Um, I guess I've always. I've always, I don't know, maybe I'm just like a touchy feely person, but I've always, like, tried to get to know the people on my team. Yeah. When I was a manager, like. Yeah, I wanted my staff to like me. I wanted to know who they were. I wanted to know what their hobbies were. But I guess that's not always a given. We're not always taught how to do that.

Speaker3: [00:48:44] No.

Blake Oliver: [00:48:45] No.

Speaker3: [00:48:45] So we have accountants aren't.

Erin Daiber: [00:48:47] Aren't always the most. Sometimes that's not what draws people to accounting. Right. We're we tend to be.

Speaker3: [00:48:54] A.

Erin Daiber: [00:48:54] Little bit more linear, a little bit more black and white, maybe not as comfortable. That's why I think I'm a big proponent of firms doing a lot more training on those kinds of skills, because it does impact the culture. You know, it's one thing to say, here's what we want. We want to take care of our people. But if our people don't know how to take care of each other, that's going to be challenging. Yep. So we have to teach them.

Blake Oliver: [00:49:17] Okay. So, um, in the in the time we have left, I'd love to talk about strategies for showing appreciation. Like, how can firms, um, show their appreciation? How can I, as a manager, director, partner, show appreciation for my team?

Erin Daiber: [00:49:34] Well, I think communicating with them, uh, just telling them when they're doing a great job catching people, doing a good job is so simple. It's free. It doesn't take a lot of energy, but it makes such a big difference. Uh, checking in on someone, not just about their progress on a task or their progress on the CPA exam. Write it like, check in with them and see how they're doing. How are they feeling? Are they, you know, do they feel like they've grown? Celebrate their wins. Don't let anything on a performance review be a surprise, because you should be in constant conversation with them about where they're doing well and where they need to improve, and providing that mentorship. Sometimes just sitting down with someone and giving them your undivided attention and guidance and and showing them whether it's, you know, theory or a trick or something that will make their job easier. All of those things, I think, go a very long way. Um, and then also being supportive of the values that we put on the wall and put on the website. So, you know, encouraging them to take their time off and to be unplugged during their time off, not emailing them on the weekend. Right. All of those things that we wish people would do for us. We need to do that for them.

Blake Oliver: [00:51:01] I've always thought, and I never did this in any of my businesses, but I've always thought it would be interesting, as an experiment, to just turn off the email firm wide from a certain time to a certain time on the weekend. Have you ever have you ever heard of a firm doing this? Because I would love to. Like I'd love to see that experiment.

Erin Daiber: [00:51:21] I love that idea. I'm not aware of a firm that does that, although if you do that, I'd be so curious to have a conversation with you. I would love it.

Blake Oliver: [00:51:30] If anyone is listening and you you do this, or you know of a firm that has done this, I want to talk to that. I want to talk to that firm because I have.

Erin Daiber: [00:51:38] Yeah. Me too.

Blake Oliver: [00:51:40] The hard part is that even if you tell people, don't check your email, if everybody has been doing this at night and on the weekends for years, then it's it's hard not to like I find I struggle.

Erin Daiber: [00:51:53] Yeah.

Blake Oliver: [00:51:53] Not to write so.

Erin Daiber: [00:51:56] Well. That comes back to the conversation around how do you operationalize culture. We have we're we have to recognize that we're breaking long held habits.

Blake Oliver: [00:52:03] Yes.

Erin Daiber: [00:52:04] And that's part of that accountability. Right. And so maybe it is that structure of turning the email off, taking it away so people can see that they will survive and that their clients will survive if they don't get a response back on a Saturday night at 10:00 and that everything will be okay.

Blake Oliver: [00:52:22] So that's my crazy idea for how to operationalize taking a break.

Erin Daiber: [00:52:25] I like it. I have heard of a firm. I'll give you one kind of unique example, but I have heard of a firm that implemented mental health days. And one of the structures and the parameters they put around that was that you could take a mental health day, you know, of course, if anyone's abusing it, they're kind of watching for that. But if you said, I'm taking a mental health day and anyone was caught making a request of that person on that day, they were the ones that were in trouble. So if I'm if I'm a manager and my staff's on a mental health day and I get caught asking, you know, kind of pulling them back in, that was going to have ramifications for me. So I liked how they were fiercely protecting their staff in that way.

Blake Oliver: [00:53:09] What about the micromanagement? Because that's another complaint, right? Is I feel micromanaged. So that's why I'm leaving. How do you operationalize not micromanaging.

Erin Daiber: [00:53:20] Right. Well, again, accountability is huge because people are just used to micromanaging. That's the only it's one of the few leadership tools in their toolkit that they have to get work done. So if we just zoom out a little bit, that's part of the mindset shift. We have to help these leaders who currently lead via micromanagement, to start believing and practicing the idea that people can actually get work done without you checking in every five minutes. But it starts with that belief. Because again, there's fear underlying that. If I don't check in every five minutes, this work isn't going to get done and I'm going to hear about it from the client. So when we talk about fundamentally changing how we do things, that's one of the ways. And then we have to put some different measures in place. We have to say to somebody, okay, here's the project that you're doing. When can you have it to me by. Let's actually put some expectations around this project. Sometimes you might have them check in with you when it's halfway done, but really putting the putting the emphasis on the person doing the task, coming to you and giving you updates. It's also an exercise in trust. We have to start trusting our people and empowering them with the tools to do their work and do it at a high quality. They ultimately want to do that, and I would love for those micromanaging type leaders to Is to recognize that actually by them hovering around and checking in on people every day, it's making them less and less responsible for their own work, right? They actually don't have to take responsibility for it, because you're going to check in with them all the time, and then you complain, well, they're not responsible. They're not owning it. They're not taking well, they haven't had to. So maybe if you backed off they would. And so we you know, we think that our actions are getting a particular result, but they're actually sometimes yielding the opposite result.

Blake Oliver: [00:55:26] Okay. Last topic then. Because I feel like you've given me a great overview of how do we show appreciation. Um, how do we how do we get away from, you know, taking on everything that comes in the door and being too busy? How do we how do we avoid micromanaging? Uh, but again, like, let's say I've come to the retreat, Aaron, and you've led this wonderful retreat. We've all agreed to do this. How do we actually go back to the office and then remember to do it? Like, is there like, are there regular check ins? Are we how do we hold ourselves accountable as managers and leaders?

Erin Daiber: [00:56:04] Yeah. Well, I think at that leadership group you have to be willing to have tough conversations. The firms that are really successful with this are willing to call each other out in a respectful way, but they're not going to let people get away with their old behaviors. Right. With falling back into old patterns and when they see it, they're willing to call it out and say, hey, Blake, just, you know, hey, that was one of the things we said we were going to not do. Let's fix that going forward or let's go correct that action. But the firms that and the leaders that stay quiet and are trying to people please and just keep everybody happy. You will probably fall back into that default mode within a couple of weeks, if not sooner. So we've got to be willing to have the tough conversations. We've got to be willing to work on our individual mindsets and blocks around it. And that's only something that's an inside job. So each leader has to take responsibility for working through their own blocks and concerns or scarcity or fears around letting go of this old way of doing things, to open up possibilities for how this new way of doing things can go. So mindset and and I like to have people define the things that they are going to stop doing or things they have to let go of and what they're what they're going to start doing to drive this new culture forward. And you'd be surprised at how many, uh, small actions really build up and make a huge impact. So it doesn't have to be this monumental shift right out of the gate. But just small changes can really start to make that difference.

Blake Oliver: [00:57:46] Aaron, thank you so much for coming on the show and sharing your insights with me and our audience. Where can listeners connect with you or learn more about what you do?

Erin Daiber: [00:57:57] Yes. Well, you can check out my website. It's well balanced. Accountants.com. You can also find me on LinkedIn. Erin. And we host regular conversation groups for partners and managing partners. You can find more information on that on our website. But that's a really good way for people to get involved. If they want to have more conversations like this about hot topics and how to implement it in their organizations.

Blake Oliver: [00:58:24] Erin, it's been a pleasure talking with you. Hope to see you around sometime soon. Even though I'm going to cut back on travel. We'll find a time.

Erin Daiber: [00:58:34] I'll see you at one of your very selected conferences.